Episode 338: The Lotus Eaters (Nolan's "The Odyssey")

[00:00:00] Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist David Pizarro having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say and knowing my dad some very inappropriate jokes. Hey, remember me? Benny Blanco from the Bronx?

[00:00:29] Welcome to Very Bad Wizards, I'm Tamler Sommers from the University of Houston. Dave, our age of podcast is collapsing. Did our most famous ploy bring about its fall? Did we violate Rogan's law?

[00:01:30] Rogan is the Zeus. Oh man. Yes. Don't worry, podcast civilization will rise again. I hope so. What would our most famous ploy be? When you lied about play diets, even though you'd actually bought your daughter mail-coded toys. One mail-coded toy. Which is awesome, stacking robots.

[00:01:58] I was playing with stacking robots, so this is a toy that Tamler had gotten his daughter that he kindly gave to my children. I was playing with them today for like an hour. It's true, like it's so addictive. I know. I'm sure your kids were like, can we play? Like, no, go to your room. I was kind of fighting my two-year-old son because I wanted to make my tower bigger. And then he would come and knock him over like a boy. Just hit him. He was like sacking Troy. Yeah. Yeah. Like he learned nothing from seeing the Odyssey.

[00:02:30] All right. So in this episode, we're going to kind of wrap up our Lotus Eaters series, which is our 12-part bonus series on Homer's Odyssey. And that is already out for our beloved Patreon supporters. But since both of us just saw it in the last couple days, what are your first impressions of the Nolan Odyssey? They're complicated, Tamler. They're complicated. Like the man.

[00:03:00] Like the man. Except not. Yeah, maybe. So having had literally a day to think about it, I feel like I've been a little bit on an emotional journey of processing what I saw. And I liked it. Like a reserved like. And I liked it because I just had fun watching that movie.

[00:03:23] And if I could turn off that part of me that wanted it to have the depth of the Odyssey that we just read, that we spent months reading and talking about. It was like, man, when's the last time? I went with Nikki and with a colleague of mine from the psych department. And it was like, when's the last time I got excited like this to go see a movie? When's the last time I went to an IMAX theater and got to see this like spectacle and have everybody talking about it and get excited to talk to you about it? And I thought there was a lot to love.

[00:03:52] Like I thought they're beautiful shots. Like as a work of visual art, I thought it was great. There was a lot that I liked. So I think overall I'm positive about it. But I also think that maybe I had like actually lower expectations. Well, by the time I saw it, I had gotten my expectations a little more tempered.

[00:04:14] But I guess, you know, if I'm just going to give my just general reaction I have to it, I'm very pro what the movie is doing. I'm glad it's making like almost already a billion dollars in the first like week and a half. It's incredible. I love the practical effects over CGI kind of ethos that Nolan has and that this movie definitely has. I love that the Odyssey is like number seven on the bestseller list. I think Emily Wilson's translation is like number seven.

[00:04:44] Incredible. She did not express a ton of gratitude for that in her review, which we'll talk about. But, you know, I actually have a lot of sympathy with. I love the possible boost to our Patreon, you know, like maybe the Lotus Eaters will get a little more attention. Yeah. And I'm just glad people love the movie. Like I have no issue with that. I don't want to be a buzzkill. I know I'm a terrible person to judge the Odyssey because I know the text so well. We just did, like you said, like a really detailed series on it.

[00:05:13] And I teach it every couple of years and I kind of have an ideal picture for me of the story in my head. So I'm a terrible person to judge it. But with all that said, I have to say I didn't really like it and I didn't think it was very good, although I have definitely a bunch of positive things to say about it, which we'll get into. But yeah, I'm really conscious about not wanting to like ruin other people's enjoyment of it. Because like you said, I think it's amazing that people are so excited.

[00:05:39] Like this was a packed IMAX theater that I saw with my wife who actually might have made it worse for me because she really wasn't into it. She also just read the book. So like I just am very excited to see that, you know, like people outside in the hallways just jabbering about it. People applauding at the end. Like, I think all that's good. I just didn't respond that way to it. Yeah.

[00:06:02] So after I give my criticisms, it's going to sound like what I should actually come out liking it a lot less than I did. But it's the bigness of it. And like just the sheer amount. Did you get the sense that like the sheer amount of effort and craft that had to go into this? Yeah, for sure. Like they're doing it on locations. Yeah. They're so beautiful in some places like the broad strokes of what I really loved were just the grandiosity of it.

[00:06:30] I don't think that anybody at any point in history could have made something that looks like this and that was this ambitious. And wasn't it? God, can you imagine if this was in the hands of the green screen people like Avengers movies? Like he got it all right in terms of that. Yes, totally. I mean, in terms of that. Exactly. Yeah. It should have been written by somebody else. Yes, I definitely agree with that. But let's talk about some of the good stuff. Yeah, I agree.

[00:06:58] Like I think it's magnificent to watch. It's like just kind of awe inspiring to see it on IMAX. You know, I didn't see it on the 70 millimeter IMAX. We just saw it on a regular old digital IMAX, but it was pretty cool. Like fucking animals. Yeah, peons. And I think because of that, a lot of the set pieces are pretty cool to witness.

[00:07:21] I think the Cyclops scene, you know, I have some reservations about like certain aspects of it, which maybe we can get into. But like it was pretty cool that he was this big animatronic kind of incredible. Yeah. Like and the way they the interpretation of how he looked, I think they captured the size of him really well. Yeah. They captured like the scale of him chewing on humans. Yeah. We have given a spoiler warning, I guess. No, I think we're good for spoilers. Okay. Yeah.

[00:07:50] Especially since this won't even come out for another week. Yeah. But yeah. So I thought the siren scene, like I found myself wanting a little more from it, but at the same time it was pretty entrancing. Like there was a strong interpretation, I think, of the sirens for the most part, I think. I think like almost anything on the ship at sea and like the shipwreck and stuff was really cool.

[00:08:14] It sounds like from what the actors have said in their like gajillion press junket interviews that it was like the hardest thing that they've ever had to do. Yeah. Like it looked like really challenging filming. Because he was so committed to giving it that feeling that this is happening. This isn't some kind of complicated digital animation. This isn't. Yeah. It's yeah. It's not going to be like the Marvel movies. It's not going to be like Flash.

[00:08:41] And you know, the Cyclops scene is a great example, I think, of something that just would have sucked if it was CGI. Yeah. You know, in some sense that it's an animatronic thing of some kind, but you also know that it's there, that the actors aren't just waving at nothing. Yes. Yeah. And I should say like saying no CGI here really means like hidden, like invisible CGI where it's not. Right. Because obviously like the man getting eaten, I'm pretty sure. With CGI. Yeah.

[00:09:06] And the skill and the, you know, that stuff has to be CGI. But he really used minimal CGI. As little as he could possibly do. And you trust him when you say, when he says that. Yeah, exactly. And I thought the Cersei scene, like that whole sequence was pretty interesting. I thought Samantha Morton gave one of the best performance in a movie that otherwise I don't think has a ton of standout performances. Yeah. I thought she was really good. Yeah. Although, you know, it's definitely not like the Cersei in the text.

[00:09:37] It's a more complex choice of how to handle that than I think maybe some of the other ones. I actually thought some of the Penelope stuff is handled very well and that Anne Hathaway for the most part was a good Penelope. And even though it's like different from how it plays out in the text for various reasons, I like their conversation that they have right before the bow contest. I like the way she kind of builds him up, tells him to hurry, like, you know, like, let's do this.

[00:10:06] I'm tired of waiting. And that's, you know, of course, reflects how I see what she's doing and those. I was going to say, Lotus Eaters listeners will know. And if you don't know, listen, this is a matter of debate. And when I saw that part, when she just sort of announces that this is going to be the contest, you know that she knows, like right away. Yep. And then, you know, the battle itself, I don't think he's a great fight scene director at all. Like, I think he's not really good at directing. I have specific things to say about all of that. Yeah. But I like the thing where he plucks the bow.

[00:10:36] You know, we talked about that in the Lotus Eaters and you get that sound and you get Penelope turning around. And then I guess the last thing I'll say that I am positive on overall, although it also ties to, you know, one of my strongest criticisms of it. But I think it's an interesting choice to emphasize the brutality of the Troy invasion, like burning the city, raping, slaughtering the women and children.

[00:11:01] Like you can find that in the text. You can even find Odysseus expressing something like remorse for some of the people that he's killed. But Nolan really underscores that and emphasizes just how horrific it must have been, even though the Trojan horse is something that was a stroke of genius or were led to believe that what it actually led to was the sacking and burning of Troy.

[00:11:28] And to show that, to make it vivid, to make it alive like that, I think is a strong choice. I think tying it as much to the Trojan horse thing and calling that a violation of Zeus's law, like I'm less into because they were 10 years into this bloody forever war. And I just don't think it's a violation of guest host codes. And, you know, even the way he plays it, it's like the fall of man, basically.

[00:11:55] It's the collapse of the Bronze Age to end it with that trick. And, you know, everyone's comparing it to Oppenheimer and the atomic bomb. But, you know, there's not a Trojan horse arms race after this. There's not a lingering threat of Trojan horses destroying the world. Until now with like viruses. With viruses. Yeah, exactly. Like Mr. Robot kind of. But the real problem is that they went to war in the first place.

[00:12:20] And it seems like for the in this movie, for the reason of expanding the empire and securing trade routes and all that. And I think Nolan does emphasize that that was a problem. So then it's just weird to make the Trojan horse, which actually ended the war at least, you know, in a way that it was going to end regardless. Oh, so like Hiroshima is what you're saying. So fine. Like, you know, just prevent future. And Nagasaki. Both totally justified. No, no, no. But like, so that part I think works.

[00:12:47] But it's just like, how did you think this was going to end? And maybe you could say that about the atomic bomb. Maybe, you know, like how many fire bombings of Dresden do you need? Fire bombings of all these cities, which kills just as many people. Like how many of those things is going to be OK as long as it's not the atomic bomb? But the problem also with nuclear weapons is they still exist and they're still like a problem. And the Trojan horse just isn't like that.

[00:13:14] And even if you want to make the Trojan horse like atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki comparison, like tying that to the guest host thing, like that somehow that was dishonorable and violated Zeus's law. Doesn't like I don't get it. Yeah. It's a huge stretch. Yeah. Like I think Nolan must have thought in his hands making a big film like this requires a big theme that's relevant. Yeah. And like I don't at all. And it sounds like you don't either.

[00:13:43] I don't care that much like about him changing things or like emphasizing. You know, like you said in the text, we even mentioned it in the Lotus Eaters. This could be like a PTSD tale. Like there's clearly that part if you want it. There's also parts where he clearly doesn't give a fuck about what he does. And certainly the Trojan horse thing. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's fine. Yeah. That's fine. He has to make it his. And there's nothing wrong with like in the way that thousands of people, if not millions, have made versions of Odyssey theirs. That's fine.

[00:14:13] Like I'm glad he took those risks. I just I agree with you that it's a stretch. Which I hated. It took me out every time they said Zeus's law. Which they said quite a few times. So many times. At one point there's a scene. I think it's around like the Battle of the Suitors scene or just before when Odysseus is the beggar. And everyone is saying Zeus's law. Like I felt like it was like, you know, I'm being John Malkovich. Like John Malkovich himself goes into the machine.

[00:14:43] And instead of Malkovich, Malkovich, Malkovich, it was Zeus's law, Zeus's law, Zeus's law, Zeus's law. It was crazy. It was like and without really any real interrogation of what that is. Now, obviously, this is referring to Xenia. And the movie suggests that it has something to do with, you know, welcoming beggars and hospitality. But also makes it very Christian and like do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

[00:15:09] Like the writing is it's really kind of Nolan cringe in a way that I don't feel like Oppenheimer was for the most part. Yeah, right. Like that was a well-written film for the most part. And this was like a regression. Nolan, his writing is so expository and even worse. Like whatever more than just exposition is. Like putting a hat on a hat. Yeah. On a hat on a hat. On a hat on a hat.

[00:15:35] And like to have his characters talking about the end of civilization, it's like they don't have the God's eye view of history. They don't have like the they didn't know it was the Bronze Age. Yeah. I mean, that part, our age of bronze is collapsing. Oh, I couldn't believe it. I had seen somebody tweet out that line and I thought they were like making fun of the writing. Someone who hates Christopher Nolan imagining a line from a Christopher Nolan movie. Exactly. It's weird.

[00:15:59] It's like I do feel like the writing must have got the least amount of attention compared to all the other things that were on his to-do list. Yeah. You know, like securing the right IMAX camera or whatever. But we're not even into criticism. No, we're not. Because I have. Do you have anything like other? Yeah. I'll say I liked some of the performances. Yeah. And you like Cersei. I wasn't sure what to think about the Cersei scene. It made sense only to me after thinking about how it fits with the theme.

[00:16:25] You know, this woman who's clearly retreated into this very protective life because of the violence that has probably happened to her and everybody she cared about. And you could see that happening at the hands of soldiers that were just, you know, coming around in boats and raping and pillaging just like they show in the movie. I thought for what he was given, Tom Holland was good. Oh, we disagree on that. Yeah. But I agree that he was done dirty. Like that character was done.

[00:16:54] Telemachus was done dirty. Oh, especially the ending. It was just done so dirty. Yeah. I think it just, he just fit with the vibe of Telemachus in the book a lot of times. I thought Matt Damon was good. Like I thought he was a good choice. I thought he was not bad. Like. It was not bad. I agree with you. There was very little standout. I kind of liked the Calypso vibe, the lotus eating and the like him not remembering. I didn't love it, but I kind of liked it. Maybe it's just because I kind of like Charlize Theron.

[00:17:21] But it's just takes all everything that's interesting out of made Calypso just someone who is good for the most part and just wanted to make sure he was ready to go back. She is a neutral being in the same way that Zendaya, like Athena, doesn't really. That's going to get into the bad. Let's just dive into the bad. I would say a couple other good performances just before we do that. Like I thought Robert Pattinson is a pretty good kind of scumbag antinous. Yeah.

[00:17:50] Also, I thought given what he was given, I thought at the end there, everybody was done a little dirty. Like, yeah. Spears. Get the spears. Yeah. No, that stuff. It was also very confusing, like what was going on. Like at first it was like, oh no, we're locking you in the weapons room. But then we're going to pound through the ceiling and then now Telemachus is actually going to get to do something in the fight. But like you said, I think the actors are doing the best they can with what they're given for the most part.

[00:18:18] Like I don't think even, like I didn't love Tom Holland, but I thought he was probably doing the best he could with what he was given. Yeah. There's one small compliment that I want to give that actually made a difference to me. And that is that the choice that Nolan made and that the actors were willing to do to film, obviously they're going to be wearing makeup, but they still looked like real faces that were older, weathered, depending on the actors.

[00:18:43] There was no real attempt to make them all gorgeous or not old, even though he cast gorgeous people. And I like that. And that's definitely a risky choice in IMAX. Yeah. You know, like the closeups, one of the things that those lenses allow for is obviously the kind of closeup that betrays every flaw in a face. And I like that. I agree. All right. You know what? It looks like this is going to take the whole episode. So let's take a break maybe.

[00:19:12] Who would have predicted? Who could have possibly predicted? All right. We'll be right back to talk about some things maybe we didn't like so much.

[00:19:22] We have an announcement.

[00:20:31] You've heard us allude to this 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that we call The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. And with all the excitement about Homer's Odyssey and, of course, generated in large part by the Christopher Nolan movie, whatever we think about the movie, I am so happy that he is bringing so much attention to this great text.

[00:20:59] And if you want to read that text and follow along with us, well, we are going to start releasing these episodes for free for everyone, even people who aren't our beloved Patreon supporters. The schedule will go like this. Every Thursday, we will release one episode. And, yeah. So keep an eye out for that.

[00:21:29] Yeah. So three months. Read along with us. You know, Tamler, there's a couple of people who I thought had stopped listening to Very Bad Wizards. It's my wife and Paul Bloom. And this has brought them right back in. Like, they are like, give it to us for free, basically. And I was like, okay, for you guys. My wife also, same thing. Yeah. It's not that she had stopped listening. She just never listened to it. And now, just listen to it.

[00:21:58] She just did all the Lotus Eaters while she was reading The Odyssey. So it's a nice companion, I think. I think so, too. So join us. But if you want to be part of the community that, like, the reason that we're able to do this and give it out to the public was because it was financed. The venture capital of our Patreon, our loving Patreon supporters. The private equity that comes from our patrons.

[00:22:26] Who, yeah, who have been following along with us for the past, what, four months now, I guess. And if you join our Patreon, you will, at the $5 and up tier, you'll get access to all of the episodes. So if you can't wait, you want to listen to them all right away, you can join our Patreon at $5 and up or $10 or $20 tier. And you'll get all of them right away.

[00:22:55] But you can also, for some god-awful reason, if you want to not be part of this lovely community, we're also releasing it as just a standalone 12-part series that you can purchase for just a one-time payment of $30. So you can binge it that way. So either join our monthly Patreon or one-time fee or just wait for the three months.

[00:23:24] We're really excited to have everybody read along with us. And you don't just get the Lotus Eaters if you join our Patreon. You also get access to Noir Summer, our series on classic and neo-noirs from last summer. You get The Ambulators. The Ambulators. Which is our first extended bonus series, this time on the great TV series Deadwood.

[00:23:53] We go episode by episode. I mean, I think that's 36 episodes, probably more because we did a couple, like a wrap-up or something, right? Yeah, totally. And in turn, the reintegrators with Paul Bloom about severance. And then just, I mean, hundreds of hours of bonus content. Yeah, so much bonus content. Plus all our AUAs and, of course, at the highest level that we offer, $20 and up per month,

[00:24:18] you would get to ask us a question every month and we answer that in an audio form for all of our bonus tier listeners and video for the big spenders. So, yeah, that's the announcement. Anything else? No, I'm excited. I'm excited for more people to listen and give us feedback and just have a discussion about the Odyssey. And read the book.

[00:24:45] All right, let's get back to our discussion of Nolan's Odyssey. All right, let's get into some of the things we don't like and then maybe that'll lead us to something. All right, so let me just give, I would say, the thing I'm most disappointed about, which I think it's very dour. It's very one note, just the mood and the tone of it. And there's almost no, like, enchantment. There's no lightness.

[00:25:10] Like, I understand not having the Phaeacians and that whole thing, but the movie could have used, like, something like Nausicaa and her friends washing their laundry and rubbing each other with oil before stumbling on Odysseus, right? Like, or more Mia Goth as slutty Melantho or the bum fight even. Just something that would, like, just make it a little lighter. It's just so relentless, the gloom of it. And I think that's a problem.

[00:25:39] Yeah, there were a couple of times where Matt Damon said a line that was kind of funny and it, like, stood out. Yeah, right. You know, because it was like, whoa, it's almost like sacrilege to be, like, making a wisecrack in a movie like this. Yeah, there was just this heaviness that just weighed down. And then I guess related to this is Odysseus, the character himself, you know, Emily Wilson, who this movie is probably going to make a multimillionaire because of how...

[00:26:08] Imagine a classics professor. Yeah. But she said that he's not really a complicated man in her review. And, you know, she's kind of right. Like, he's just this... He feels lost and guilty. And that's pretty much it. You know, you don't see his swagger. You don't see the hubris. You know, like, the hubris of identifying himself to the Cyclops. He doesn't do that. Like, you don't even really see him being that clever. You don't see him being, like, a sexual being.

[00:26:35] You don't see him being, like, having sex with Cersei and having sex with Calypso. It's like he's always just a victim that feels bad about what he did in the war and what he did to the men. And it's not that there isn't that element of him at all in the Odyssey. It's just it's not the only thing about him in the Odyssey. And, like, I don't know. So he ends up being kind of a mix of, like, Batman and Oppenheimer here. I did start just to, like, interrogate you a little more on it.

[00:27:04] Like, I think I agree with you, though. But when he, like, shoots the Cyclops with his arrow and the men get mad at him, like, I thought that was a note where we got some of that stubbornness and, like, a bit of pride. Like, he just stabbed him in the eye. Like, what's the big deal about shooting him with an arrow? Like, the big thing is that he identifies himself. No, I know he didn't identify himself, and that would have been the big thing. But after they snuck out, like, he shoots him in the eye and he causes the Cyclops to chase after them.

[00:27:34] Like, lost men because of that. They could have snuck out. Right. I guess he snatches another guy. Yeah, yeah. And they end up running their asses off because he was like, hey, fuck you. Like, here's one more arrow. And then he realizes that the guy snuck out. But was he like, hey, like, why did he even do that? To spite him. I think it's the same reason that in the text he says, like, tell him Odysseus did it to you. Like, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just, like, I think this is Nolan trying to show, not tell. Yeah. But he's not that good at showing and not telling.

[00:28:04] Yeah. And it's such a kind of a letdown thing to do. Just fire an arrow at this, like, giant who you've just blinded. Like, and I don't know why you don't just do the thing that the text gifts you at this point. Like, it would have fit with what he wanted to say. But I think part of it is that Nolan is really underplaying this idea that reputation matters so much. Like, he just kind of ignores that aspect. Yes. One note is absolutely right. He picked the note.

[00:28:32] He picked the note and he played it the whole time. And it's like, now that we're speaking in that language, it is perfect that that bow only has one note. Yeah. It is not a harp. He is plucking that one string throughout the whole movie. Yeah, that's right. Okay, so I'll add on to this. I think really consistent with what you're saying about Odysseus, the character, I think most of the characters, I do not feel that much for them.

[00:29:00] I think Nolan is weirdly bad at giving us an emotional core to people. Yeah. And sometimes I sit there and I think, what is he doing wrong that I don't care that much about any of these people? And I don't know. It's like when he says those lines or when he shows Odysseus feeling guilt, even when he's trying to show us, I still feel like he's telling me to feel like a thing. And I don't feel, maybe that's character development.

[00:29:30] Like, I don't feel like I grow with the characters at all. All of them are a bit two dimensional. Athena is not wily. She's not anything. What is she? She's not anything. I mean, she might as well not be Athena. Yeah. She might be a hallucination. Yeah. The Trojan girl in the war. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, Calypso is not anything, which I didn't have a problem with in the local sense.

[00:29:55] But you're right that like you got to pick someone to give you the like the vibe, even Penelope. I mean, part of this is unfair because you don't have a whole book to develop characters, but movies do it. The best movies do it. Somehow they like really make you care. And I just feel like there was such little to that emotional core. And again, like I'm fine if that's what it's going to be. I didn't care about Moses and the Ten Commandments either, you know, but it was pretty damn cool to see like him parting the Red Sea.

[00:30:23] But if you're going to make a movie that's largely about the trauma and the guilt, this is going to be a weird thing to say, especially after you talked, I think rightly so, about how the sacking of Troy was pretty crazy. I don't think that the violence was violent enough. In this really odd way, every single time you would be about to see a violent act. Yeah, that's right. They would cut away. That's right. There was such little blood. Yeah.

[00:30:52] There was no gore. And like, I'm not saying I love that, but I just think that if you want to show the horrors of what men choose to do to other human beings, then show me. If you want me to feel at the end an enormous sense of guilt, don't just show me Zendaya's pretty face and then like replace it with the statue of Athena's head being lopped off. Show me Zendaya's fucking face being lopped off.

[00:31:14] Like, I think that's how I would get the sense at the end that he is a man who is like in the microcosm sense destroyed the world around him. And maybe in the macrocosm sense is responsible. You know, one of the people responsible for the downfall of civilization. And, you know, I'm not asking for Tarantino kinds of cartoony violence, but I do think movies like Saving Private Ryan last because they were willing to show the horrors of war.

[00:31:42] And along with something that you said about Cersei, and I think Emily Wilson says, there's no sex in this movie. Yeah. And it's like, that's really weird choice too. Yeah. I feel like Nolan is just intellect. Yeah. Nolan is so intellect when it comes to writing that his best movies are like Memento where like, maybe that's a bad example because you finally care about that guy. No, I mean, that's a good point. And it also relates to what happens at the end with the suitor is like, yes, he kills a bunch of them who are all attacking him.

[00:32:11] But he doesn't kill all of them. The people who surrender, he seems to spare. And there's no Telemachus killing the bad maids, you know, the bad slaves, women. And there's no like, never mind, like lopping off the penis and the tongue. Dude, right. So there's none of that complexity.

[00:32:32] You really are just supposed to think this is a good man, like pretty much through and through that really feels bad about doing something that it's not totally clear why he shouldn't have done. Even if I guess you can make some kind of case for it. And like, yeah, that's a real shame. I will say that we are in the minority of people who didn't care about the characters. And maybe that's a result of the fact that we actually did care about the characters in the poem.

[00:33:01] But like, it does seem like other people are responding to a lot of that stuff in a way that you and I didn't. Yeah, I mean, I have had the same thoughts about Nolan's other films, you know, Interstellar being the one we always go back to, where it's like, weirdly, he's trying to tell us that love is like the solution or like this. But like, he doesn't ever really make you feel.

[00:33:25] I mean, yeah, I did feel sad, but like, that's because you pulled out all the guns for the tearjerker with the daughter and stuff, but not really. Like, I wasn't really. I actually was moved by the reunion of Odysseus and Penelope a lot more than it. I mean, I really don't like. That was nice. Yeah. I thought that that was because the actors did a good job convincing us. Yeah. I was disappointed with how little the Argos dog reacted. Like.

[00:33:55] That's one I haven't come across. That's good. Yeah. You know, really odd way. That's good. Argos laying on that pile of dung and like him going to say hi to him. All he gave us was a tail wag. Yeah. And it looked like an animatronic tail wag. Yeah, totally. Like I didn't even. I wanted like Argos to like show a burst of energy. You know, it's supposed to be when nobody else knows who the fuck this is. You know why? Because it wasn't about Argos. It was about Odysseus. Like right in the poem, like Odysseus sees him from across.

[00:34:25] And and but really it's about Argos. Like, oh, this is what I've been waiting for. And now I can die. But here it was about him. And it was about that was the thing that made Telemachus sure that this was Odysseus because they can't do the Athena makes him turn disguised. Yeah, it's true. Because there's no gods. Really. We should talk about the gods. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's true. You're right that it really does kind of reverse it in that it's about like Odysseus is such

[00:34:52] a good person for remembering his dog rather than Argos is just waiting for Odysseus to come back. Yeah, yeah, I know. I hadn't even thought about it in reversal terms, but I just knew that I just didn't feel what I felt from the book. Yeah. So, yeah, but I think you're right in that way. I thought that the slave woman, you know, rubbing his scar was done well. You know, that's a thing that is hard. But would you understand that if we didn't even know? I don't know. Yeah. No, actually ask because Nikki hadn't gotten to that part in the book.

[00:35:20] So I asked her and she's like, oh, like she had a vague sense that it meant something to see the scar. But she, you know, the movie tries to show you when he gets the scar. That's at the beginning, right? You have to know. Yeah. You'd have to know. Yeah. I think there's pretty like down the line kind of boring interpretations of all these kind of iconic characters. I agree. You can handle them how you want. It doesn't have to be like how it is in the text. Right. But I was just generally disappointed. Like Calypso is a good example. Fine.

[00:35:46] If you don't want to make her this nymph goddess who's also kind of on the outside of the real gods and kind of complaining about the double standards and all that, like you don't have to do that. But then do something more interesting than what they did. I thought Menelaus, you know, I like Jon Bernthal, but like I didn't think there was anything kind of interesting about him. That's right. I like Jon Bernthal. And that was my feeling for that, for those scenes. I was like, oh yeah, I like this guy. Yeah.

[00:36:15] Telemachus, we talked about, gets done dirty. Like. That was terrible. Like that's such, you know, look, obviously you can stray, but like, as you were saying, you got to pick some important things. Interesting about that character out of it and just made him like. Yeah. And he never has the full coming of, you know, all he does is tell you like I'm a man now or whatever. Yeah. And in the last battle scene, he's like reduced to throwing pottery at the other guy, you know, trying to help his dad.

[00:36:45] Like, it was just weird. It's like, you showed him training at the beginning. Yeah. Like it's Dune all of a sudden or something. You know? Like, what the fuck? What are we doing here? Like, no, we have limited amount of time. Like, you don't need to show a fucking karate kid scene that's not in any of the versions of the text. I know. I know. By the way, I never heard anybody complaining that Eumaeus was Puerto Rican. I feel like that should have been part. That should have been part of the culture wars. Like, how did he get a pass?

[00:37:14] All of a sudden we got like Puerto Rican over here talking. That's one of the things I heard that he was so good in the movie. And I like John Leguizamo. Like, he's a good actor. And he was good in it. He was good. He was one of the better actors. But it's not like that interesting a performance. No. Again, because of what he was given. I did think that he had probably the most on-screen charisma. Yeah. Most of the side characters. Because as you were saying, it's dour. Yeah.

[00:37:43] I think what they do to Helen is kind of unconscionable. Like, that's one of the worst ones. I do not understand that decision at all. Like, this is supposed to be a woke movie. And I guess you could spin this. But instead of having her be this like powerful, beautiful woman who still has power over Menelaus. Like in the text. And she just drugs everyone when they start getting mad about the war. She's like just some victim of domestic violence. You know? Like, it's just a terrible choice.

[00:38:11] And then to have her be a twin sister with Clytemnestra is weird. It's like they needed to show the beautiful version of her. Yeah, I guess. Very confused. Like, I was like, wait, isn't the whole point that like, you know, we still are in awe of Helen when we see her in the Odyssey. It was very weird. One of the things we talked about in The Lotus Eaters is how strong the female characters are in the Odyssey. And they're just not here. Like Athena, Arte, Calypso, Sarsi.

[00:38:40] Like, you know, maybe Penelope. I think they respect. Strongest one. Strongest one. And I think that's a lot because of her performance. Yeah, I agree. Like she carries herself. Yeah. But not really. She's great. Yeah. I was. I didn't used to like her that much. Yeah. I'm a fan now. Yeah. The Helen thing, I guess, along with the Cersei thing, it's supposed to all fit this theme of like what hath Odysseus wrought. Like what has mankind wrought. But again, I didn't feel it that much.

[00:39:09] Telemachus at the very end not fighting and Nemaeus being blind and not being able to fight and it being. The book traumatized me more than the movie. Like, you know, my response to that scene in the book is like, it's more cinematic than the movie. It's fucking badass. Telemachus, it's so important that he fights like a man in that battle. Is there something that, oh, I don't want you to take part in the slaughtering of the suitors. Like, that's me. Is that part of it? But like, you need to be a kid. It must be. It all does tie together.

[00:39:39] Yeah. I think it's like that. But then one of the things I absolutely hated, just maybe idiosyncratically, is he gets home finally to Ithaca and they show the mist thing. They gesture at the mist clearing and Athena there. But then all of a sudden he goes to Pylos like he's Liam Neeson in Taken to rescue Telemachus from the ambush. Like in the book, Telemachus figures it out himself. Because he's gone. Like he's done this coming of age trip.

[00:40:08] And here he needs to be rescued like some damsel in distress. And then Odysseus needs to immediately sail away like somehow to, like it reminded me of like Batman going to Hong Kong for some fucking reason in the dark night. But there at least it was like, oh, because you need to sell this in China. Here it's like there's no, you don't need to sell this in Pylos. What the fuck are you doing? Why are you emasculating Telemachus even more than you already have? It's just weird. Yeah.

[00:40:38] Like I was confused where they were in Athena's temple. They say that's Pylos. They say that's Pylos. Yeah. But it was very like I also was like, wait, this is not. I hope I'm right about that. He doesn't need to be rescued. Yeah. I mean, he definitely did. Whatever it is, he needs to be rescued. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't really get this growth of the Telemachus character. And I think you're right. Like he's protecting him from the stain of like, you know, being the terrible man who kills everybody at the end.

[00:41:07] But like in our discussion, I realized that all of these decisions that I didn't care for are because he really is trying to make it all one theme. Yeah. Which is, again, OK, if I felt it and I just didn't feel it that much. And I felt it at times. You know, I guess we could talk about the ending, but I don't really have much to say. It just didn't land for me. So Telemachus is king and they're sailing to honor the men.

[00:41:34] It was such a Lord of the Ringsy, weird, let's sail to the West kind of thing. And that came out of nowhere to me. So on that, though, I think that Nolan is taking a note from Dante's story of Odysseus. And I just learned about this. But I don't know if you know in the Inferno, Odysseus is in hell. Yeah. And he's in like the eighth circle.

[00:41:56] And the reason that Dante gives is because the trickery of the Trojan horse and his just general deceitfulness as a person. And apparently in that, it's said that like at the end, he sailed off with Penelope. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And I'm not sure. Like, I didn't read anything that Nolan confirms this. But, you know, Dante apparently didn't have access to the Homer writing. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:26] Like at that point, they had lost civilization, had collapsed. Yeah. And Odysseus is a villain in like a lot of the Greek tragedies and certainly in the Aeneid where we didn't talk about Elliot Page and the Sinon thing. But like that comes from the Aeneid. Yeah. Okay. I see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it's not as if Odysseus is a villain in this either. It's like he's weird. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. Kind of as the director, not as Odysseus.

[00:42:55] You don't see why he might be in the eighth circle of hell or why. You don't even see him being that sneaky and clever. You kind of have a vague sense that he thought up the Trojan horse thing. Yeah. Which, by the way, I loved the Trojan horse scenes. Yeah. That was really cool. Like the sitting in there for days like that just added a realism to it. Yeah. I had read a lot about it. I think this to my detriment because I kind of was prepared to really like that aspect of it and it did it.

[00:43:25] Oh, one other thing that I really despised about the movie is the Land of the Dead scene. Like I feel like that scene is a disgrace compared to how cool it could have been to do that right. I don't understand why there was no Achilles interaction, which I think actually really fits with the theme of the text and the Sinon story. And I don't think this is Elliot Page's fault. He's fine, I guess, like everybody else doing the best. You know what?

[00:43:55] I am going to just put it out there that I am less transphobic for being willing to say I did not like Elliot Page's performance. Okay. That's fine. I've like wrapped around to being more egalitarian. Nice. Yeah. That is one of the most like you're a true ally to say that Elliot Page sucked. It wasn't good. And it's because he's actually a woman.

[00:44:23] No, I just think like, I mean, maybe he was bad. I don't know. Like maybe it's like with Tom Holland where it's just a deeply uninteresting. Thing. I don't know. It's like a contrived thing for Odysseus to feel guilty about. And I like, I don't think Antinous needed another thing to like, he didn't need to be a draft dodger in addition to everything else. It was also a little confusing what happened. Exactly. I was like, am I dumb here? Like, what is going on? What is he doing? Who's buying who off?

[00:44:49] Like, no, I know you got the sense that somehow Sinon was going instead of Antinous. Yeah. Yeah. But like, it was very confusing is how that works and how it related to the lot. You know, like that whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's supposed to hit like really hard when he gives him the thing. And then, yeah. Oh, your shame is bad. That stuff. That stuff doesn't work. Okay.

[00:45:15] I, but I just think the land of the dead, like him hugging his mother, you know, like the shade of his mother. Instead, they're like these like zombies that climb out of the earth. I, that didn't work for me at all. It's weird because like in discussion with the people I watched the movie with, when we were talking about the gods, which we're going to talk about, I guess in a second. I said, oh, well, I guess, you know, you know, he wants to make it so that nothing really requires supernatural. But then I was like, but then there's Hades.

[00:45:43] So like, if you're going to just violate your own rule and have an actual fucking ghosts and Hades, like coming out of the soil. It's a weird thing. There's a deep skepticism about the gods, but there are supernatural things that happen. It just has to be very tactile. It can't be very spiritual. I just think the shades and the way they're described and the way they kind of hover and the way like he tries to hug his mother three times and just goes through them.

[00:46:11] Like this is one of the reasons I think Nolan in hindsight is really not the right person for this job. Although he, you know, again, I keep wanting to emphasize he clearly is because like it's making a billion dollars and most people love it. Yeah. He's the right guy for a very important aspect of it. That's right. Yeah. But not the enchantment part. Not that. So then let's close this segment on the gods. Like, what did you think of how he handles them?

[00:46:39] How they're barely in it. Yeah. Might just not exist in the movie. Yeah. Well, really quickly, I had one thing to say about the Hades thing because I didn't hate it. I liked the soldiers all running after him. I'm again fitting that part was, you know, that was like a very, I don't know, epic scene. Yeah. I guess. My one criticism is not even, it's just aesthetic, which is when you're in the underworld, I want to be in the underworld. Yeah. I don't want to be on some dark beach.

[00:47:06] Like, I wanted to be in like a fucking cavernous, like I want to see those shadows as like ethereal shadows of like barely presences of people who once existed. And I get that he was trying to stay grounded even with this scene by having a real location. And, you know, those were all practical effects like them crawling out of the, they had like fucking snorkel gear to like stay under there. But it's like, well, just give us some magic.

[00:47:34] I just don't think that's the land of the dead that you just crawl out of the earth. Like you said, like just a normal beach and start talking to people. Yeah. By the way, Agamemnon, Benny Safdie, did you like him? I mean, he didn't like, he's barely in it. It wasn't the standout role. Yeah. He's not constantly bitching. He did look badass. Yeah. Those uniforms, the aesthetic choices that people get mad at for being anachronistic.

[00:48:02] Thank God he made choices to have like really cool fucking helmets and stuff. When Troy's, when the doors open and he's standing there. Yeah. But it's like, that's one where like, that's not how I picture Agamemnon. So like even that was tough for me, but it was very cool. Yeah. Okay. The gods. You asked the gods. Um, I think that the text, as we've said many times, you could reread this and think

[00:48:31] that the gods don't exist other than the obvious, like times where it says Zeus is talking to Athena. Um, the presence of Athena could be explained away very easily. That's why I think it would be fine. I'm not like mad at the choice to not show gods. I think Nolan played it safe in a lot of ways. And I think this was a decision that he played safe. Like he, you know what he was? He had the fear of cringe and that doesn't serve you well always because one, there were clearly cases of cringe.

[00:49:01] And two, sometimes it just feels like you're falling to like a middling kind of decision as a director by not doing it. And what I read about Nolan's decision not to have the like nobody scene was that he just couldn't, he was like, I couldn't find a way to like make it sound right in a movie like for him to yell that out. Well, because there were no other cyclopses on the island. Exactly. Number one. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I think that's a good way to put it.

[00:49:28] Like he's playing it safe by not having it partly because I don't think he would have been good at presenting them. It would have been, you know, was going to show like a bearded Zeus with a thunderbolt in his heart. But in like a Denis Villeneuve like hands, like I think that could have been possible. I feel like there are directors who are more creative in that way. Yeah. I think like a, like a Werner Herzog could have done like a good job with the gods.

[00:49:55] You know, the one thing that kind of shocked me that I thought was taking a risk was the Cersei scene where he turns them into pigs. That was cool. That was really cool. Like I thought that was well done. It was certainly not how I imagined it. And it got to body horror levels. It got to, you know, like Cronenberg-y. Yeah, exactly. And like there's so many other opportunities to do that. Like when they eat the cattle of the sun in the text, like the little pieces of their

[00:50:23] cut up meat start mooing like all at once. And it's like piercing their ears. Just they're mooing just all these cut up bits of the cattle. Like he doesn't do that except there. He really has this like horror-like element and also very spirited away. Like the whole thing of them eating and... Oh God, I knew that I was thinking of something. Yeah. That was like an homage. That's what I was telling Jen afterwards is I think it was...

[00:50:53] Yeah, absolutely. That is not, there's no way that that's not intentional. Yeah, that's what I thought too. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, so he could have taken some more risks like that. I think also I can't overestimate the amount of pressure that must be on him to make this a movie that is loved by the majority of moviegoers in a way that's always going to disappoint. But middling I think is the right word because if you're going to just go full, the gods aren't real.

[00:51:22] The characters believe the gods are real, but they aren't real. They aren't present, then just don't have Athena. I know. And if you're going to have them be a conscience, have her do more shit. I don't know. Yeah. Have her be more, you know, have her be a Jewish mother. Instead, she's literally nothing. She doesn't do anything. There's not a single thing I remember Zendaya doing. Nope. Other than getting her head lopped off that gets replaced with Athena. Yeah. When she's not Athena. Yeah. But like in terms of what Athena does, there's nothing. And like it's fine.

[00:51:51] He doesn't want to have gods interfering in the action like Athena occasionally does in the Odyssey, but then just don't have her. Like if you want to make the choice, there are no gods. That's fine. Then just don't have them. Yeah. Yeah. Like mentor was wasted a character. Yes. You got no sense of the politics of Ithaca either. And I don't, you know, I don't want to turn that into like a, you'd easily go George Lucas star Wars with like trade route discussions. Right. Right. The prequels.

[00:52:21] Yeah. But you got no sense of what Ithaca was other than like a castle on the top of a hill. Totally. And you don't get a sense of him coming back and spending most of the, like the text, like just kind of gathering himself and building himself up. You didn't get any of that. And I don't think it's possible to get all the, you know, you can't have the Cyclops and the Sirens and Cersei and like you can't have everything. I just wish he had made different choices.

[00:52:49] And also he added a bunch of stuff that just didn't need to be added. Like why have him rescuing Telemachus? Like that took time. Why have, like, we didn't talk about the opening 15 minutes, which I was like, I think that put me in such a bad mood that it stopped me from enjoying some of the good stuff that came. But just that exposition in the beginning and like, oh, that was just like. Remind me what is going on? It's in Ithaca.

[00:53:15] So Travis Scott is telling about the Trojan horse. Penelope stops him. And then you just get like a little really exposition heavy. Yeah. And maybe that's just because like people need to know the story because most people. It's hard to know. It's hard to know. It's hard to know. Yeah. It's hard to know. I agree with you. Like these are all trade-offs that have to be made. I just, I still think that the criticism though is fair. Like there's a way in which you can nitpick and be unfair to a director who's a, but I

[00:53:44] think it's a fair criticism to want more character development and want more emotional depth. Like that's doable. I would take like the last Dragonians, just cut that out and develop characters more. We don't need another thing of them going. That's true. That was other than looking cool. Yeah. It was pretty pointless. I mean, you want to give the sense of the journey and like the travails of the men. And the fact that they are the sea people. Like it's not. Oh, it's like, yeah.

[00:54:12] The sea people was them all along. It's like Bruce Willis. Yeah. That was again, heavy handed. All just too heavy handed for me. Yeah. If there was lighter touches throughout the movie, like I think that could have been okay, but it was just another thing. Right. You know what you're saying? I think is an important emotional truth, which is why do we care about saving a civilization in which we have seen such little happiness? Yeah, exactly.

[00:54:42] Nobody's having any fun. Yeah. Nobody's having sex. What are you saving? Yeah. This is like what Emily Wilson said. Like the food looks terrible. The food looks terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Emily Wilson got a little dirty there. I mean, like I would feel bad about like trashing the thing that's making me a multi-millionaire, but who knows? She erred in the opposite direction. I think she must have thought that this was a way to show her purity was by being willing to criticize. I think she's like, it sounds like you are maybe more than me, like not a Nolan fan.

[00:55:11] And so a lot of the Nolan stuff also bugged her. But I agree with a lot of what she said in the review. So I can't. Yeah. I disagreed with a lot. I don't like, I couldn't put a number on it. I thought that her, her calling the black friends, just like black best friends. Yeah. I don't think like everyone was like bland. It's not, it wasn't just the black people. Yeah. She says something about the sea peoples. She tries to like diss him by saying the sea peoples are like a discarded.

[00:55:41] Oh, that it's a discarded theory. That it's a debunked theory. And that's just not true. Like that's absolutely not true. It's still a live theory. I was actually, I looked into that a little bit and it seems like people. Yeah, it is. And it was funny for reasons that had nothing to do with the Odyssey. Like I did, I went down a rabbit hole about the collapse of the bronze age, not that long ago. And what we know now is that they were lots of different people.

[00:56:06] There are different ethnic groups and we just don't know who they were and why they were doing all that raiding. But the one ethnic group that we do know, where at least people are pretty sure, were the Philistines. And the interesting thing that's kind of consistent with what Nolan says is that the evidence for who the Philistines actually were, you know, you might know them from the Bible and their constant battles with the Jews. The Philistines turns out probably were Mycenaean Greeks who had made their way to the Middle East and like settled there.

[00:56:35] And so them coming back and attacking these cities is a little bit like a, they are us, like in the end. Interesting. I do think there was a little lame the way she was like, I won't spoil it, but also like you probably can tell like that it's us, you know, I won't spoil it for the stupid reader of my London review. But like I said, like I have to say, like I would feel personally a little weird about it.

[00:57:04] But at the same time, I think she said what she thought and I agree with a lot of it. So I don't know. Yeah. I saw somebody say this and this is also the sense that I got, but you know, I'm not going to judge Emily Wilson because I like I'm a huge fan of everything that I know about her. Yeah. Yeah. Like the way that she's handled all the criticism. And the translation. The translation. But for her to say something like, I would be ashamed had I written that script. Oh, yeah. It's like you don't write scripts. So like you don't, you know, that's like the kind of thing that it's unfair. Yeah. That's like it's a hard fucking thing to do.

[00:57:34] Yeah. And it was kind of self-congratulatory too. Yeah. But that's a good example of something that you agree with. Like you, you yourself said. Well, I wouldn't be ashamed. I mean, this is what's hard to like balance with all the criticism is that like, how, how could I do any of this stuff? Right. And the, the, where I differ from her is she sounds like she doesn't have fun. Like when you read that review, I don't, I'm, I don't believe that about her in general. Yeah. It sounds like it's hard for her to have fun. Maybe a little bit like you being closer to it.

[00:58:03] It's harder to have fun. I still, after everything that I've said, which again, like, I think we've agreed a lot. I still came out of the movie with a joy of like the cinematic experience that I had. I had fun at parts. I did. I do think my experience might've been also marred a little bit. Like my wife was just not into it at all. Like I also did really enjoy some of the scenes and I actually found myself moved.

[00:58:27] I'm easily moved in a movie, but like I found myself moved with the Penelope stuff at the end. And you know, that's a very important part of the text to me. And even though I don't think he came close to capturing like the complexity of that whole sequence and even the stuff about her weaving, like there were cool images of her weaving, but it was never clear that she, like how she had tricked the Studer. But there was something that he got in a way that's again, like it's what movies do. And I think you're right.

[00:58:57] It relates to their performances. Yeah. She had a dignity about her. She had like a carriage. And, you know, I'm very grateful for the movie to capture something like that. I emotionally connected with about the Penelope Odysseus stuff, which is one of the biggest things I've always responded to about the text. So yeah, like I do think we've talked mostly about criticisms, but I, I had a good experience in it. I'm not dying to see it again, but I think I would see it again.

[00:59:26] And I, yeah, I think I would too. Like, you know, DVD, Blu-ray. Yeah. On a plane. Just like Nolan intended. Like that scene where Penelope snaps at Telemachus. Oh yeah. What did you think about that? It took me out. For some reason I was like. Yeah. Where she storms out of the room. Yeah. She's like, I've been doing this for 20 years. Like. Lame. Like, I really didn't like it.

[00:59:53] I, like I said, I liked it when she's at the end with Odysseus up until then, like I'm indifferent. Like she's like the rest of the performances doing the best she can with not much. And I thought that was weird. And again, like in the text, Telemachus is the one that like dresses her down and partly it's like a plan, but it's just so much more interesting. Yeah. Um, I'll say one thing about that last scene.

[01:00:18] And I think that Matt Damon sitting down and, and stringing the bow was a moment where I was like, yes. Totally. And kind of how I imagined it. Like all the suitors trying to like assemble the bow and pull it and they can't do it. And then Odysseus like first not being able to do it and they're all laughing. And then, uh, yeah, like that was good. Like there's a lot of good things about it. So let's end this segment or is this going to be the main episode? I know. This might be a bit. Yeah.

[01:00:49] All right. We'll be right back or join us next time. I don't know.

[01:01:15] Just a very bad wizard.