The Lotus Eaters Episode 8: Home and Homelessness [unlocked]

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00] drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_03] Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00] The Lotus Eaters.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_03] So we are today going to be discussing books 15 and 16 of The Odyssey. This is, I guess, kind of builds up to the reunion of Telemachus and Odysseus. They finally will meet and eventually Telemachus will recognize Odysseus. But there's so many beautiful scenes in these two books. Yeah. What did you think of these overall?

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00] I really liked them, man. You know, it's a buildup. And because I only have a vague notion of what's going to happen with the suitors, you know, like I know broad strokes what happens. I'm enjoying like this sort of tension building in these scenes. And like that emotional relief when the son and the father finally recognize each other. And like I felt emotions about what it must be like to have never known your father and to have never seen your son. And he's in disguise. He knows, but the son doesn't know yet. And it's like, it was great. I loved it.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And there's a little bit of kind of awkwardness when Eumaeus kind of embraces him for the first time. And he gives the simile of like, it's his own father. And it's like, in some ways, he has been more of a father to Telemachus than Odysseus has.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. And he calls him grandpa, which is really sweet.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_03] Very sweet. Yeah. I think there's a bunch of like beautiful scenes. I think the scene with Odysseus and Eumaeus when he listens to Eumaeus' story as they're kind of drinking wine really late at night and enjoying the grief that they get to express, as they put it, is so beautiful.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03] I think the stuff at the beginning with Telemachus maneuvering his way to get home out of Sparta is kind of cool. Yeah. And then there's just a lot of weirdness. Like they pick up this son of a prophet on the way who's on the run. He's like, he's like got to get the hell out of Dodge, you know?

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00] And, uh, totally. Like, does that guy make any more appearances? I have to know. Yeah, he does. Okay.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I think so. Yeah. But nothing big.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00] Cause you think with like, uh, stories that are this old and have been told for this long that you might just have like vestigial characters who like once played a role. Now they just sort of pop in and nobody knows why they're still part of the story.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, maybe. But I think there's always, I would say, thematic relevance. And that guy in particular keeps talking about homelessness and how that's like, that's a terrible fate. And then that's exactly what Odysseus says when we cut to him in the next scene with Eumaeus. So I think there's definitely some parallels between, you know, him and Odysseus. Just he's at a much earlier stage than Odysseus was.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, totally. Like the biggest thing I was going to say about theme wise is like the notion of what home is. Like what does home mean and what is it? And Eumaeus of all the people is like probably the most at home. Yeah. Even though he's a slave who was sold, but he was sold as a young boy. And so this is all he knows. So he's almost like a bedrock home, whereas everybody else is, yeah, feeling unattached. I don't know if you've ever felt that way. Like I luckily never moved. We didn't move a lot. I think we moved once.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00] Like when I would go to college, there's always home for me. I always consider my parents' house in California home. But I know what it's like to be in that sort of in-between where you're not quite sure what home is. And that's an uncomfortable feeling.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, totally. And then the feeling of being homeless, I think, is both literal and I think that is like a distressing thing. But it also signals something that you're lacking, some deep connection with your roots. And, you know, this is what Odysseus has been struggling with for so long now, at least since he got to Calypso's Island. And we're starting to see that he's very gradually starting to build connections back to his home.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_03] But he still can't help lying and disguising himself maybe more than he should. But this is really, I would say, like a meditation on exactly these themes, like that theme especially, what is home.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. The other thing I was going to say is it really felt to me like this is picking up Temelechus' first four books where I almost feel like these are his books too. Like it really is a develop. You see him develop morally, like in terms of his character. After he just matures and he starts making decisions, you know?

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And there's actually like a little moment where he even kind of stands up to his dad. Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00] Totally.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03] And yeah, you can see his head throughout, very hospitable. Like he welcomes that. He's doing it right. Yeah. And he doesn't make Odysseus, who he doesn't know is his father, get out of the chair and like all of the things.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00] Dude, you just made me think that Odysseus wasn't there. We've talked about how he didn't have like a father figure. He's been basically raised in a house of suitors. And how would he even know what to do? And now, like I'm realizing Emmaus is the one who showed him what to do. Emmaus' hospitality is the hospitality that Telemachus is showing.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, that's right. And he was like that even when Athena came disguised at the very beginning of the book. So it's got to be Emmaus. He didn't learn that from this trip. He learned, I think, yeah, like how to do it maybe in the more kind of formally proper way. But I think like, yeah, it probably is Emmaus that gave him the heart to want to do those things in the first place.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly. Like leading by example. Because you get the sense that Emmaus is such a charitable host, even though he's in a position of low power. Yeah. And it's like that's his domain and he cares for people in his domain, like the little outskirts with the pigs.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And then you see that even though he is a slave, he was bought as a young child, like almost like as a kind of a mercy. And then raised by Odysseus' mom along with the sister who we just learned about. I don't think we'll ever hear about again. And he said that the mother treated him almost as an equal, just a little less.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01] She says, tiny bit less.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03] I'm a slave. You know, like cut her some slack. Yeah, it's really cool, I think. I think you got some good suitors stuff too.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00] You get a lot of like concerns about loyalty. There's like this big unknown for Odysseus and Telemachus. They want to know who's going to be loyal to them, which makes sense.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I would push back just on the Telemachus part of that. Like I think Odysseus, that's a big like when he's coming up with his plan and it's like a kind of a heist film. He's like, OK, you put the weapons in the storeroom.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_00] You could see the rising action in a movie already.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, totally. It has a very kind of almost Ocean's Eleven quality, except he's kind of thinking of it on the fly. He's like, tell them, oh, I put it away from the fire. No, tell them that you guys get drunk and then you'll hurt each other. But then he's like, but first, you know, we got to go test everybody. We got to test to see if the slave girls are being loyal to me and to Penelope or not. And then we have to go around and test all the slaves. And this is where Telemachus says, look, yes, we can test the slave girls, which actually is interesting. But let's get this moving.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_03] So I think he's in planning mode, but he's not yet in fighting mode. And I think the testing is part of that, is that he's using testing maybe as a way to postpone things a little bit until he can get to. Or maybe it's out of just fear of disloyalty, fear of lack of recognition. So like it could be either. But Telemachus is like, I don't want to go around like the countryside trying to find every person in testing.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I got the sense that Telemachus was like, dude, like I know you've been gone 20 years, but like let me just remind you this would be very like long and inconvenient if we were really going to go to each person.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I love you. I haven't seen you since I was an infant, but I'm not looking to do it.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe not 68 dudes. Yeah.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_03] I'm not trying to like walk the Appalachian Trail to see if some herdsman still is loyal to you. So, yeah. Any other thing you want to say about the themes here?

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00] I think that's it. I mean, there's just like, just to say again, the tender moment of reunion is like, to me, was the emotional center. Even though I don't think it's the overall theme. Like that's what, like I went back just to read that part, like when they embrace, you know.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_03] And the little simile, and then they just start wailing, you know.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00] Of course they do.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03] But it's like, yeah, we'll get, when we get to that, I want to read that simile because it's kind of beautiful. All right, well, let's get into it. So, we open in Sparta and Telemachus with a little nudge from Athena, but he didn't need it really. He wants to go home. So, he wakes up Nestor's son and he wants to leave, but Nestor's son's like, no, you can't leave. You've got to wait for Menelaus. So, then he asks Menelaus. He tells him that he wants to leave.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_03] Menelaus is like, we can go by and pick up treasure from like all these towns. They'll give you the best gifts. And Telemachus, I think this is like, he's really handling this with class, this whole interaction. And I really like what Menelaus says. He says, Telemachus, I will not keep you here if you are truly desperate for home. I disapprove of too much friendliness and of too much standoffishness. A balance is best. I love that. To force a visitor to stay is just as bad as pushing him to go.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_03] Like, that's the golden mean shit.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00] Totally. This is like a very Aristotelian character-based vibe to this. I wanted to ask you, in what Athena tells him, she tells him like, hey, but just be careful. The suitors are like hiding to like ambush you and kill you. I forget now. Did he know that already?

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_03] I didn't think he knew it, but he might have suspected. That's like a crucial, yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00] Like, that's the one piece of information that like gives him the upper hand, I think.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_03] And that's just reminding me that in the last books when Odysseus wakes up on Ithaca and then is like, what? You sent him to Sparta? Like, when the suitor is going to wait to kill him? And she's like, no, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. And maybe she was like, oh shit, like to-do list. Like, go Warren Dilemcus. Like, maybe that was really good that he freaked out like that.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00] I'm sure he'll be fine. Yeah.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_03] Stop it, Odysseus. I'm insulted that you would even- Oh, fuck. Hopefully he hasn't left yet. You can see like Zendaya running and like a Looney Tunes. Like- Like the Roadrunner.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00] By the way, there's a Looney Tunes moment when they describe how the Phoenician woman dies by being like smacked against the side of the ship. I was like, oh shit. She's just smacked against the-

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_03] You know, I'm not saying she had it coming, but-

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00] Even Athena says you know how women are.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So first they give him gifts, which is, as I'm sure every reader who's made it this far can tell, like a huge thing. And Menelaus gives a gift that, you know, it's a solid gift. It is a bowl of silver circled with gold. But the main thing is Hephaestus made it. Like Hephaestus made Achilles' shield, you know, in the Iliad. Like if he makes it, it's the best.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00] This bowl, you can drop it. You can like eat your cereal for like 20 years and it'll never break.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Right. It's like, what's his name? Hattori Hanzo or the sword. Yeah.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00] Hattori Hanzo.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_03] But then Helen gives him something that she crafted herself for his bride, you know, when he gets married and she says, I made it myself. And she's like glowing when she says that. And, you know, she's been so affectionate slash a little bit, maybe milfy, cougary maybe to Telemachus for the first time ever. Like I said, I've been reading this for, you know, 16 years.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03] I was like, did Odysseus and Helen maybe back in the day, you know?

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Makes sense. They seem to be like the, you know.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_03] The smartest.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00] The smart ones. The best looking ones as described.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03] Well, yeah. I shouldn't say the smart one because I think Penelope is the smart one. But, yeah, they have a kind of deviousness that is, you know, maybe just one night they got drunk a little too much wine and, you know.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00] Dude, but when the translation says, then Helen's lovely cheeks flushed as she moved in close. Yeah. I was like, yeah, it's horny. That's what I mean.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_03] But she thinks he looks like Odysseus.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03] It's probably just.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00] I was going to say, it's probably just us. Or it's just us. Yeah.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_03] So then he does do like a little itty bitty lie to Menelaus. So Menelaus says, you know, just give my best to Nestor. And Telemachus says, yeah, oh, sure. Definitely. We'll definitely tell him that. But he already knows, I'm sure, that he's not going to want to go to see Nestor. So I think, you know, that just shows that's a little baby Odysseus, you know, trying to come out like the tactful thing, but also not necessarily the truthful thing.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00] Right.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00] What's with the birds, by the way? Okay.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So an eagle comes by right now and he's got this white goose clutched in its claws. That's a tame goose, which.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It was caught from their yard. So it wasn't like a wild goose.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_03] But remember this because this will come back. This is the first thing that will come back in book 19. So just that's all I'm going to say about it right now. But yeah, remember it. And it's interesting. So then Nestor's son is like, what was that? That seems like an omen, you know? Yeah. And Menelaus, it says, favorite of Ares wondered how he ought to answer. But Helen cut in first and said, now listen, I will make a prophecy. The gods have put it in my heart and I believe it will come true.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_03] Just as the eagle flew down from the mountain where he had his home with chicks and parents, seizing this tame goose, so will Odysseus, who has been gone so long and endured so much, come back and take revenge. And then she says, like, indeed, he's already there, like, planning this. And so, like, one thing that's so interesting to me about that is it's another thing, like, with Arte and Alcinoos, like, the women kind of take charge.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03] While Menelaus is like, huh, you know, like, well, what does that mean? Helen just comes in and just gives, like, the best possible interpretation. And also one that's, like, true. And how would she know that? It's just, like, women are powerful in the Odyssey.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, they are in this translation. It was Menelaus that says that in, like, the actual Greek. I mean, she did cut in first, so that tracks.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, she's a little mouthy in this translation.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00] Helen is, isn't she half God herself?

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yes, but that doesn't really do anything for you superpower-wise.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Well, doesn't it sometimes, though, like, Heracles? Isn't he strong because of that?

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00] But I was just thinking maybe her connection to the gods lets her interpret it.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, they usually say, oh, Athena put this in her mind. They don't say that. And I just think it's, like, super interesting also, because all joking aside, this is in all the translations because it's in the text. Menelaus is thinking about it, and she answers the question in a way that's, like, about as both accurate and kind of inspiring for Telemachus as it can be.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, and he needed to hear it, too.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, and he still keeps saying, oh, my father is dead or whatever. But, yeah, it almost starts to be like, that's just the thing I always say. Yeah. He's starting to maybe not believe it anymore. Yeah, then we get, like, this weird, the Theoclimenus, like, background of this guy. And it really is extensive.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00] I was so confused. I was so confused because it says, like, he meets up with this guy, like a foreigner. And then it's like, who had done this and had run away, but he was a prophet who was descended from this guy who lived here, who was, like, the son of this guy. And by the time we get to the end, I forgot who we were even talking about.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_03] And then you find out, like, at first you think, okay, is this the story of this guy? But it's not. Yeah, yeah, it's not. It's the story of his great-grandparents and then his parents. And then they were like, oh, and he was the son of that guy who was also just kind of a minor character that kind of got pissed off with his dad and left. But, like, the point of the story was, like, all the stuff that had happened, like, two generations back. Yeah. It's weird. You could do a miniseries on, like, that little bit right there.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00] It feels like this is the busy work part when they were in the oral tradition making people memorize it. You gotta get Theoclimenus' story right. No, it was Oaclise. It was Oaclise.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_03] But I bet you could find, like, real—I don't know. Like, I trust this book. Like, some people trust the Bible. Like, it's not in there unless it has a reason. I just, like, you know, at a certain point you have to make business decisions about what you focus on and what you don't. But I like when he actually talks, it's very down to the point.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03] He says, He talks. He just gets down to business. And I gotta think that this is part of the anxiety of Odysseus, almost like just manifesting in terms of a person. Like, I'm being chased. Like, Poseidon hates me. I don't trust the gods. And, like, I gotta get out. I gotta keep going. And maybe it's more like when he was floating on the way to Calypso's island.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03] But this guy seems to me to be, like, a representation in some way of Odysseus's homelessness and feeling like the whole world was out to get him.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I like that. I mean, the trip into the psyche.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00] I also like this because I think it would be a tough decision just from the description for Telemachus to make where he has to say, like, okay, am I going to abide by this pretty strict customs of hospitality? And this guy's just told me he's a murderer. So either he's lying and he's a liar or he's a murderer and he's a murderer. So do I really want to, like, after all this, like, it's a risk for me to even get home. But I took it as Telemachus being, like, a judge of character.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00] Like, he could tell that this guy was, like, genuine and needed help.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And he's like, he does exactly the, you know, like, this is your ship as much as it is mine. Like, make yourself at home. And you're right. This guy has confessed already to being a murderer. And he's like, sure, come on our ship. People are chasing me. I'm on the run. Like, come on my ship. Right. Like, this is what I think he's – I think he always would have wanted to do that maybe because of the Eumaeus character building.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03] But, like, this trip has made him just know to just say, okay, I can – this is a worthwhile risk. Like, it's the moral thing to do. And I can handle it, you know?

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And that's, like, the moral development of a person, any person, can't occur until they're put in situations that allow them to sort of, like, test their judgment and test their moral muscle. And he's basically spent his life being, like, kicked around by these suitors. And now he's finally out in the world where he can make these decisions.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. It's like the Karate Kid. Movie I've never seen.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00] He's been waxing on. Oh, you've never seen it, God. Have you seen it? Like, ten times.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00] This is our age difference. It was, like, just a couple years off for you.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_03] No, I don't think so. Like, my generation – well, first of all, we're the same generation. So I can't even believe I fell for that. You know what? Never mind. I'm going to cut all of this. Yeah. So then you cut to Odysseus. And what's kind of interesting about the beginning of this is Odysseus is still testing Eumaeus. He's like, I'm going to test Eumaeus to see if he'll be hospitable or he'll make me go to the suitors.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03] It's like, what does he need to fucking do? Like, he's clearly loyal to you, you know? But Eumaeus passes it perfectly. He says, like, no, you can't go see the suitors. You'd be killed if you set foot among that horde of suitors. Their aggression reaches the iron sky. And those who wait on them are not like you. They're young men. Well-dressed. Again, this is so, like, internal, I think.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_03] They're well-dressed with bright, clean hair and handsome faces serving the bread and wine and meat piled high upon their polished tables. Stay here. And, like, that's passing the test perfectly. And he says here, which is, I think, calls back to Theoclimus. He said, I hope Zeus loves you as I do since you have saved me from the agonies of wandering. The worst things humans suffer is homelessness. We must endure this life because of desperate hunger.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03] We endure as migrants with no home.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00] Relevant today, Chandler.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03] It really is. I love agonies of wandering, too. Like, the save me the agonies of wandering.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. I guess as a reminder, like, Odysseus is still in his old costume. Yeah. Athena's old cosplay.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_03] You know, the immigration thing is actually, like, an interesting point. This is something about, like, hospitality. And that's always, like, part of the conflict of this because it's a virtue to be hospitable and it's a risk to be hospitable. And yet you should do it anyway in a lot of cases.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_03] And, like, that theme has been with us, like, in all cultures, you know, for 3,000 years and right now is obviously playing out today.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, just as a general thing, when I read this, like, it makes me sad. Like, I think, like, even just, you know, immigration obviously is writ large. But even just in our daily lives, like, it's like we've lost some of this. And not all cultures have. But those norms of hospitality that were so strong. Like, in the Bible, like, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is basically, like, two strangers arrive at a house. And he's just like, yeah, come. Like, you're my guest in my house. And, like, a mob of dudes comes and is like, we want to fuck those guys who just came in. He's like, no.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00] I'll give you my daughters.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I'll give you my daughters.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00] Which is not cool. That is hospitality.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I think that takes it a little farther than I would. But it was like a serious thing, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's where I would draw the line. But, you know, I think you're right that we're in America. We're on the bad end of that culturally. And I don't know if it was always like that. But maybe it's because this wasn't our home to begin with. I don't know.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00] Good point. So Odysseus here asks about his parents.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03] Laertes. It was of Odysseus leaving.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_03] So this is where we got what I think is an absolutely beautiful passage where Odysseus asks him to tell the story, you know, how he got here. Since he clearly got here when he was very young and was treated very well by Odysseus' parents. And so his response is, since you have asked this question, stranger, listen, enjoy my story. Sitting quietly, drinking your wine. These nights are magical with time enough to sleep and to enjoy hearing a tale.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_03] You need not sleep too early. It's unhealthy. Any other man who feels the need of sleep should go lie down, get up at dawn, have breakfast and go herd the master's pigs. But let us, you and I, sit in my cottage over food and wine and take some joy in hearing how much pain we each have suffered. After many years of agony and absence from one's home, a person can begin enjoying grief. That's an interesting line, right?

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_03] After many years of agony and absence from one's home, a person can begin enjoying grief. I will tell you my story as you ask. It's just a lot there, you know?

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00] I know. It's wise. I can't put my finger on what that wisdom is for some reason. Like, what is the difference between Laertes, like, eating away with grief and Eumaeus being able to grow old and find ways to enjoy his grief?

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think one thing is if you can share it with somebody and they can share their grief with you, that there's a joy in that. Like, it's just the ability to unload and have someone bear witness to your suffering. It's not even just it eases the pain. There's actual positive joy that comes from it. You know, do I think it's like that?

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03] Maybe, you know, maybe this is some of the morning rituals that people have, like, you know, sitting Shiva or something where a lot of people will tell stories. Like, the social aspect of it is, I think, the most significant part of it.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yep. And there is a meta way in which embracing your grief can help you deal with it. And in a way, like, we've talked about this before. Obviously, many people have talked about it. It's like resisting it, fighting it is what makes you unhappy. And so here he's like, let's tell our tale of sadness and, like, find some joy in this. Like, yeah.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. So then he tells his story, which involves the Phoenicians. Yeah. These merchants.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. My peoples. These are my ancestors because they are the ones who became the Lebanese.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, really?

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Phoenicia was like basically Lebanon. All the coastal area there.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_03] And it's my people that always get accused of being conniving little merchants.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00] They were merchants. What's funny because, you know, having read some about the Phoenicians, we know so little about them. Like, whatever records they kept were on papyrus. Like, so the city of Byblos and the city of Tyre or whatever. Like, that papyrus just didn't keep, right? So unlike those clay tablets that the Sumerians and stuff wrote on, the papyrus didn't keep. They didn't seem to have written a lot anyway about their own culture. Yeah.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00] And so what we know about them really are from people who are kind of antagonistic toward them, like the Greeks and the Romans. Like, that's where we get the most. But they were like active for like 3,000 years or some crazy shit. Like, just traveling up and down, building their boats from the cedars in Lebanon.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And they just didn't like leave records of it. So we don't know about it. Yeah.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00] That's right. So whatever we hear from Homer, it's going to be a little salty is what I'm saying. I love here the sex sways all women's minds.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03] Even the best of them.

[00:29:21] Even the best of them.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So she does a real, I guess she was a slave too, who was like the nanny or the, you know, the caretaker of the au pair for Eumaeus.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00] Who was sold as a slave.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03] It's only a one-time fee rather than a salary. Yeah, exactly. And then, so she really plays a long game, like a whole year of just secrecy until, you know, they made enough money to load their ships and then they take her and she, as a way of enticing them, says, I'll get you this son of a king that you can sell for a lot of money.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00] Because they're promising to take her back to Phoenicia where she's from to meet her family.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, right. Yeah. And then it ends, like you said, like in a very strange thing. Like, I guess Artemis didn't think this was cool.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00] I guess so. You know, they're always blaming the gods. Like, it sounds like she just slipped. Yeah. So it says, for seven days we sailed and on the eighth Artemis struck the women with her arrows. She crashed into the ship's hold like a seagull. They threw her overboard to feed the fish and seals and I was left there brokenhearted. It's like a seagull.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_03] Like the dumbest bird. Yeah. It's funny. Like, it's a very unceremonious, like, ending. Totally. For her.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00] For her, like, years long plans. Yeah. It really is. It really drives home the point that, like, fate is cruel and, like, capricious. Odysseus must have known this story already, right?

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I think so. Yeah. So I think he, when he did that, it was a nice thing. Like, I know this to unload your burden. But then, what does he say at the end that kind of ruins him being like a total mensch?

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00] In the end, though, Zeus has blessed you since basically your slave owner was nice.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00] It says, my heart is touched to hear the story of your sufferings, Eumaeus. In the end, though, Zeus has blessed you since after going through all that, you came to live with someone kind, a man who gives you plenty to eat and drink. Your life is good. But as for me, I am still lost.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_03] You were doing so well up till then. It's like, God, you're so lucky that I was so good to you. And I guess his parents do. Yeah. That's the end of, they just kind of fade off into the night. It's very beautiful.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And then we pick up Telemachus. Yeah. Who's coming near the mainland. I guess he sneaks past the... It's not totally clear. Yeah.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03] Like, they have all these scouts, like, looking out for a boat. And somehow they're able to dock the ship without anyone noticing. Maybe Athena did something to them. Or maybe they just kind of got drunk and fell asleep. But in any case, like, he's able to do that. He's able to get away, go see Eumaeus. Yeah. And then there's another bird omen.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So Telemachus, some god has sent this bird to fly on your right hand. I knew at once it was a sign. Yeah. So it was a hawk this time. A bird flew on his right. A hawk Apollo's messenger clutched a pigeon in its talons. Feathers scattered between the ship and young Telemachus. So this time it's a hawk with a pigeon. Yeah. Last time it was an eagle with a goose.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_03] And so he gives a prophecy. He's got a little prophecy in him. He's a little Nepo baby prophecy guy.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. He says, some god has sent this bird to fly on your right hand. I knew at once it was a sign. No family in all of Ithaca has greater power. You are the kings forever. To which Telemachus replied, oh stranger, I hope your words come true. If so, I would give you so many gifts to show my friendship that everyone you met would be impressed.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because like initially he said, yeah, why don't you just go try your luck with the suitors? I can't host you right now. But then after he says that, he's like, you know what? Here's my best man. Hold up at his house. But that's fine. Like he just the fact that he took him on the boat is good. So then, yeah, now we got the big reunion. And I just love this. So they're talking. And then Odysseus says, you may have someone must be coming a friend or somebody you know.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_03] The dogs are friendly with no barking. I can hear footsteps. And it says he hardly finished when his son, his own dear son was there inside the gate. Amazed the swine herd. It's just interesting. It goes right to the swine herd, you know. The swine herd jumped up, letting fall the cups in which he had been mixing wine. It spilled. He ran towards his master, kissed his face and shining eyes in both his hands and wept.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_03] Just as a father, when he sees his own dear son, his only son, his dear, most precious boy returned from foreign lands after 10 years of grieving for his loss, welcomes him. So the swine herd wrapped his arms around godlike Telemachus and kissed him as if he were returning from the dead.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, so sweet.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03] And like, I think it's interesting that he gives the simile of like a real father and also that like he's the first to jump up. Of course, Odysseus can't really jump up like that.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00] He's still in his old body too.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, but yeah, it's just another kind of, not ironic, but just kind of poignant bit of, ah, this is so complicated. Like everything that's happening. I know.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00] You think like, what is Odysseus feeling in that moment when he sees Emmaus has had this relationship with his son that he was never able to have?

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00] I think this is the first time, I could be wrong, that it says godlike Telemachus. It's usually godlike Odysseus.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah, I think that might be right. Yeah. I don't know, but that hasn't been one of the little monikers that he's been called, I don't think, before.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00] But I think, you know, he's come back a little bit changed. He's come back a little matured.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_03] I love that Odysseus starts to get up because he's supposed to be a beggar and Telemachus is like, no, sit down, I'll find a chair somewhere. You know, like, but he still has a little kid in him. When Emmaus says, like, maybe he should go to see the suitors, he's like, oh, god, this is worrying to me. How can I invite him to my house? I'm too young to fight back with my fist if someone picks a fight with me. My mother is unsure if she should stay with me and show respect towards her husband.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_03] Like, he starts getting a little, he starts perseverating a little bit here, you know.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00] And it's like the moment he walks back into the home, like, environment. Yeah. He's like lost a little bit of his head. Yeah.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_03] I think that's right. It's like, oh, all these other anxieties are now, like, they've been reawakened.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And you fall into, like, old patterns, too.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00] When I go home to my parents' house, I just sit there and let my mom serve me like a fucking asshole. Because she always did.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. That's a really nice point, I think. One of the things about getting away was he was able to, like, forget about the suitors and questions about his mother. And, like, and now it's just all flooding back.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But, you know, he bounces back a little bit. Totally. Like, he's like, okay, I got to make a call. So, look, this guy came to your house. Like, we have to treat him right. And I'll bring a cloak and a tunic and sandals and sword and help him on his way.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03] I don't think we talked about the cloak, but that's, like, a big thing that people talk about is the cloak that Eumaeus gives him at the end. And now he has a new cloak. And I haven't really dug into it, but there's, like, a whole literature around the cloak.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00] So, Odysseus hears about the suitors in the situation. And it says, See, he's testing his own son here a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_03] still hope yeah that's so interesting that part like and also like why would he say the thing about his brothers if i know he knows he doesn't have brothers and maybe it's just his own guilt too it's like if i was here i would uh if i lost i would rather die in my own house than watch such

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00] crimes committed strangers dishonored but that's like sort of like just being a dick to telemachus like saying like you haven't done what you should have done if it were me i would have died by now

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03] trying to like solve this injustice yeah that's true i am kind of read it this time thinking it was also more why have the ithacans let this happen but it is it's like what's wrong with you like how are you letting how are you but like yeah he was like 15 years old when they all like descended on the

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00] house like what's he supposed to do he's like my father fucking went to fight some war for some

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_03] chick he probably banged once yeah i think he kind of makes up for it you know in the reveal where he says i'm the one that brought you all this suffering and heartbreak but yeah i mean and

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00] it's fair that he wants like there's some questions that are clearly he's trying to gather information like have the ithacans turned against you like what's going on yeah but you're right it's a little

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_03] bit like what's wrong with you how'd you fuck up my house like this yeah but i like telemachus's reply

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00] he's like let me explain stranger yeah the ithacans aren't my enemies i don't have brothers i can blame zeus gave my family a single line arcesius had just one son laertes who had odysseus his only son and he had me his only son whom he left back at home and this part got me he had no joy of me yeah what do you how do you read that so like as somebody who i've you know i have a son now who's

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00] almost two and i've spent the day the entire day with him if you took that away from me imagine taking all of those years of like growing up with eliza take that away she's still your daughter but you had no joy of her yeah like you didn't get that joy the joy that that a father should have so he's like expressing some sympathy for his dad he's not even blaming his dad he said he didn't get

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_03] he had no joy of me like yeah so that was that's definitely one way to read it the other reading is kind of the opposite of that which is like he apparently had no interest in raising a little infant because he left to go fight this you know harebrained war that's the only other reading and i don't think it's like that i think it's like what you're saying like he never got to enjoy like having

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03] a son yeah you know like his grandfather and his great-grandfather and all that exactly yeah and it

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00] would like i guess it would turn on just the phrasing in the greek which i have no idea what it is because if it had said he had no joy for me like i would read it more like that second way

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_03] i'll tell you why this occurred to me is because you remember the the story that he tells eumaeus about being someone in crete and uh this is odysseus telling that story and then there's that weird little interval where he came home but then he's like raising a family wasn't for me i was still in a warrior mindset and so i left and so like i thought that was odysseus maybe kind of confessing

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_03] that he was he maybe felt like he didn't want to be the domestic type at that time in his life and now telemachus is kind of signaling that i'd like to look at like maybe by next episode i'll look at some other translations uh because i think it's probably you're right in that interpretation

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00] but i'm not sure the other thing that could be going on is that he means that second thing that you were just saying but he is not going to put his dad on blast to a stranger so he's basically

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_03] euphemistically saying my dad left me right right he didn't get to enjoy me and he didn't seem to really want to either because that was a completely voluntary war that he signed up for but maybe now that he saw helen like he's like i am maybe it was worth it do you have anything to say about how like he gives eumaeus kind of like very strict instructions but tells him not to you know a

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_03] eumaeus is always thinking about everybody and was like what about poor old laertes and he's like no and i don't totally know why he says it's sad distressing news but no leave him alone if human wishes could come true my first would be to have my father come back home it's like why does he say that like what relevance is that to whether eumaeus tells laertes or not like i don't totally get this

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00] part yeah i don't know it seemed a little cold like the only thing i could think is if you're trying to limit the information like maybe he just doesn't trust that he won't say this to some of one of his slaves say what that he's home that like like people know i know i like yeah yeah i don't know i mean he's being sneaky i'm not quite exactly sure like since he's gonna go have a messenger tell his mom that he's home i don't know like what kind of sneaky he's trying to be no and he wants to her

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03] uh to send a slave girl to tell laertes so it's not even that he doesn't want laertes yeah right

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00] right right tell mother she should send a girl in secret to run to all laertes with the news

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03] so who knows but i feel like laertes gets a bit of a raw deal sometimes we might see that again yeah uh so then we have what is you know a very emotional scene uh one thing that's kind of interesting is that athena like has to kind of prod him to do it and the reason she does it is i love this that she's itching to fight um so she wants him to start planning how to kill the suitors

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_00] and she's like we're in book 16 dude come on let's fight yeah she is a troublemaker and then she does the makeover yeah she made him taller and younger looking he became tanned and his cheeks filled out and we're told that only odysseus sees her telemachus couldn't the dogs could see her but they're like afraid of yeah that's dogs are smart

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00] like i'm not fucking with uh they whimpered and slung back across the room in fear she raised her eyebrows with a nod he understood and came out past the wall and stood beside her and so from like telemachus's perspective he's just like some invisible thing is happening and he's just like turning into a different guy and so his son was startled and looked down afraid in case it was a god yeah his words flew out uh stranger you look so different from before and then he says and i love

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_03] this i am no god why would you think such things i am your father that same man you mourn it is because of me these brutal men are hurting you so badly so i first of all i think that's kind of interesting that he he takes a little responsibility there like even if it was like like you were saying that he was saying what like what the fuck telemachus then like why did you let this happen right now he's saying

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03] these men are hurting you and it's my fault you know yeah yeah and then like he's crying like he's he's crying for the reunion but the son like telemachus doesn't necessarily accept it right that's like the

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00] suspicion that i was remembering when i said they were testing loyalty like i it wasn't really in my head that telemachus was testing anyone's loyalty it was that he was just standoffish because he required more evidence which is totally reasonable in this situation like he has no fucking idea what his father

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_03] would look like you know and this is what i think odysseus was worried about like how am i going to convince them that i really am odysseus like i can't show them my id like i you know it's been 20 years but he does it by like convincing it like basically telling him the truth the goddess can't transform me as she likes sometimes a homeless beggar then she makes me look like a young man wearing princely clothes for heavenly gods it's not difficult to make a mortal beautiful or ugly and what i thought

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_03] was so interesting about this like again if you want to read it a little more metaphorically it's like you know he's always in disguises he's like the big the disguise king and it you know it's like in that talking heads song like i don't know what i look like like it's like i i'm sometimes this you know then i meet nazca she dresses me up nice and then i look like this but then i'm back to being a beggar and like you know it's just like fate is what's doing this in addition to yes of course

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_03] athena's waving her wand and doing it but i think it like gets at that kind of we can look good or bad

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00] depending on circumstances and like emotionally too like it's like he is attractive when he is reunited with his son yeah he is attractive when he finally has contact with another set of humans and nausicaa you know mix them up like it tracks him yeah totally and then finally telemachus

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_03] believes that it's him and uh yeah then you get that really nice simile do you have that up

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00] with that he sat back down telemachus hurled his arms around his father and he wept they both felt deep desire for lamentation and wailed with cries as shrill as birds like eagles or vultures when the hunters have deprived them of fledglings who have not yet learned to fly that was how bitterly they wept their grieving would have continued till the sun went down that's an interesting uh simile there

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_03] right like because it involves like infants that didn't get a chance to even learn to fly they

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_00] were already killed you know it's like heartbreaking yeah like when the eagles got their little babies

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_03] stolen from them and that's probably how they feel like even though they're humans and they're the ones that are doing that to the eagles like the gods are doing it to them you know yeah that's right

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00] yeah so then they start planning yeah i love odysseus is so like i'm well known for my intelligence like we get it this is the first time i realized how many suitors there were like it's never numbered before yeah it's like 116 or something like that uh 52 came from delicium all top-notch fighters who brought six

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00] henchmen 24 men came from same 20 more from xinthus and from right here on ithaca came 12 all strong young men yeah so yeah it's it's like the ultimate reality show and and interestingly i don't know if

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_03] i picked up on this before but the two kind of worst ones antinous and urimachus are both from ithaca yeah so they're really like kind of poisonous and antinous we learn at the end of this book like his father was kind of saved by odysseus i know he's so worse like i think urimachus is smarter so he's like maybe a little more evil uh than antinous but antinous is like just the most

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_03] malevolent i think he's always like okay we got to find a new plan to kill telemachus yeah i like

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_00] when they're planning like the violence and telemachus is like dude there's too many dudes you know there's too many guys it's totally like a heist movie yeah there's just too many guys we got to think better how did you read when odysseus says do you think athena and her father zeus would be strong in us to keep us safe is he being like kind of sarcastic he's like oh do you mean like the two most powerful

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_03] gods like if we had them on our side is that what he's saying because you don't think that would do the trick uh the ultimate all father oh because they have the six henchmen i forgot about the six henchmen you know like oh and uh yeah and the bard i would love it if it's like that but i feel like it might be but but maybe it's also just like trying to get him to like get out don't think like that

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_00] you can't you know whatever it was telemachus read it literally like in an autistic way he's like the ones you mentioned are good defenders they do sit high among the clouds and they control both men

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_03] and gods i mean like if you're talking about those two and like in particular yeah they have like uh it's like reading out they're like 28 on base so that's a problem but they they do 28 damage every time they attack with their uh their net rating is like plus 24 and like the trojan war so that was

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_03] good money money money balling the fucking olympians i think yeah that totally is true i mean i don't think they they totally mean it like that but uh but then i think like this is what i like like so odysseus is kind of in charge of this conversation and maybe that is a little sarcastic and he and he's definitely doing like the george clooney like oceans 11 thing of like yeah but then he says one more thing if you are my true son of my own blood let no one know that i'm in the house

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_03] laertes and the swineherd must not know nor any of the slave girls and not even penelope until we

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_00] have determined the woman's attitude this is where i was really curious so nor any of the slave girls and not even penelope until we have determined the women's attitude is he talking about all of like the slave girls and penelope is that like an include because it's women plural yeah like we can't

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_03] trust women basically and then he says we must also test the male slaves this was what i was alluding to earlier and see who has respect and fears me in his heart and who does not and who looks up to you as you deserve and this is where telemachus said and he's glowing when he says that you will see my courage in the moment i am tough but it would take too long to go around and test each man like that and all the while the suitors would be sitting in your house wasting your wealth with heedless

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_03] partying now so reconsider like yeah i agree about the women which of them are innocent and which dishonor you that'll actually come back in a kind of grisly way however i have no desire to traipse around to test the men we can do that later if zeus reveals a sign to you so i like i think that that part of this is a little like he's almost saying like if odysseus was frustrated before he's a little frustrated like you're here let's do this like let's not fuck around like testing everyone

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_00] constantly but odysseus is testing obsessed yeah i was reading this like as odysseus because i had the same question as you like what the fuck odysseus that he's just broken about this like he's been like at war too much and like betrayed or whatever like this is him being just ultra paranoid yeah in a way that like would keep you alive during war and maybe even here maybe he's right but it's like

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_03] certainly seems excessive yeah i don't like i don't find it to be strategic at the margins of it like there it just seems like a disorder almost like or at least like i think it's strategic you could even say although everyone has assured him that penelope stays true you could even understand it maybe with penelope i don't really understand the strategic importance of doing this with eumaeus

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_00] no right i think it's like an an adaptation that is like over over firing right yeah but i would

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_03] suggest at least i'm not sure of this but i would suggest that it's also him like it's a procrastination thing it's a postponing of like i don't know if i'm fully back to being odysseus like i can plan this shit but can i actually carry it out and so maybe he just wants to kind of gather himself before and do what he does best which is test people and lie to them and pretend to be somebody else

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_00] yeah i'm not even clear what it means to test them in like would it just be like asking them questions like he's been doing with eumaeus or like that's what he's talking like when he said

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_03] to eumaeus so maybe i should go to the suitors uh what do you think i want to earn my keep you know and then eumaeus was like no you stay here don't you know and like that was like a test and he was you know he wanted to test telemachus at one point even i think and yeah and there's more testing a lot more testing to come but i like that like telemachus locks that down like totally that was

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00] the moment yeah that was like a real important moment for my reading of telemachus that he was he's accepted that it's his father and like think about how large he looms in the minds of everyone yeah he is practically a god and so for him to have like the courage to stand up to his own father is a good sign that he might have the courage to stand up to anybody totally one thing that is an

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_03] echo of like something that happened much earlier so when he says the swine herd will escort me into town i will look like a beggar if they abuse me and you see me suffer you must restrain yourself repress your feelings even if they are pelting me with weapons even if they grab me by the foot to hurl me out so he's like this is his way of trying to infiltrate his own house is to dress up as a beggar right yeah and this calls back to what helen said in book four she was telling a story about how

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_03] odysseus in advance of the trojan horse trick came into town to like lay the groundwork somehow and helen was the only one that recognized him and so and then he kind of told her the plan and she was supposed to play along but then didn't once the trojan horse was in there so it's like he's going back to the playbook in a way like this is what worked in the trojan war i dressed up like a beggar

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_03] i got into a city of my enemy except now it's his own house you know and that's very cool i don't think

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00] i noticed that before this time yeah yeah that's super cool yeah i also just like it's kind of nice to be like hey look son they might treat me like shit but like lay back like don't yeah let that get

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_03] to you yeah right it's part of the plan self-control is the key you know like that's something that he has in spades it gets away from him a couple times but mostly that's the thing that he's on like

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_00] it's one of his primary virtues really that's right and like the kind of deception that he engages in

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_03] requires like a ton of self-control yeah yeah this is what uh helen said she said he beat himself and bruised his body badly and put a ragged cloak on like a slave then shuffled through the enemy city streets in his disguise he seemed like a poor old beggar hardly a man to sail with the achaeans he crept through troy like that and no one knew him and now he's doing that same thing but in his own

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_03] city trying to get into his own house so yeah that's very cool all right so then uh we get the suitors and they're all you know god god damn it you know he made it he made it what's wrong except this one so there's urimachus the smart evil one and then antinous the kind of medium intelligence

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_03] the midwit evil one and then there's infinimus who is not from ithaca and is like the best one it seems like he was against the telemachus murder to begin with and he was happy to see that the ship came home and he says let's not kill him he's been like that like the kind of the biggest mensch among the suitors but he's still a suitor and still doing the things that they all do right it does say

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_00] penelope preferred his speeches yeah over all the other ones like the uh let's not kill

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_03] your son's speeches i can see why yeah probably the other ones too i like that she really upbraids

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00] antinous uh yeah she fucking like rips him a new one you're a brute a sneak a criminal the people say you're the smartest boy of all those your own age on ithaca it is not true you're insane how could you devise a plan to kill telemachus do you have no respect for ties created by supplication which zeus watches over have you forgotten that your father came here running in terror from the ithacans who were enraged because he joined the pirates of tafos and was hounding that the sprocians are

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00] allies so the ithacans were eager to kill him rip his heart out and devour his wealth odysseus protected him now you consume your benefactor's wealth and court his wife and try to kill his son and you're hurting me i tell you stop and make the other suitors stop as well yeah like how long

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_03] have the suitors been there like four years i think yeah i just think like it's a little weird that like she'll speak to him like that but then he's still a suitor and he's still like why can't she say i swear on zeus and athena i'm not gonna marry you so get the fuck out of my house like why

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00] can't she say that i know i know i don't know i mean i think this is part of the puzzle of penelope too because she could but like i think you know she was like i still have like a lot of life in me and i don't like if he's dead i kind of need to take care of me yeah um yeah she's kind of stalling

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_03] too she has been the whole cloak weaving unweaving weaving unweaving thing is kind of i don't want to have to make a decision right now and they're both kind of like that in their own ways um like one thing i firmly believe and i'll be interested to see if you agree with this as you go forward is that they are soulmates those two penelope and odysseus yeah um so then your

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00] maca says like just the foulest shit i was reading this and i was getting angry myself where he's like wise penelope you need not worry put this from your mind no man will ever ever hurt your boy while i'm still alive upon this earth i swear to you if someone tries my sword will spill his blood your city-sacking husband often would take me on his lap and give me tidbits of meat with his own hands

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_00] and sips of red wine what a fuck so telemachus is now the man i love the most in all the world the boy is in no danger not from us there is no help for death brought by the gods yeah so just setting

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03] that aside you know yeah what a dick yeah that's why i think he's the most evil because antinous is like oh sorry you know your maca just comes in and it's like oh we love this kid oh are you kidding me yeah she she cries again and goes to sleep and that's it things are really yes they're gonna start to pick up but really i think these two books you know i was uh looking through my old lectures i've

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03] lectured i thought on every section of this book at some point because i've probably done the course like seven times or eight times over the years but uh this is the one section i've never lectured on like i've lectured on like other sections uh more than once but this one like 14 15 16 something like that like never before 17 on a lot but yeah so like you know it's different when you're lecturing

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_03] on something you go yeah you dive into it you like swim in the text to like try to find something interesting to like an angle or something but i haven't really done that with these books and i'm glad just this episode like kind of forced me to do that because it's really beautiful oh awesome yeah

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_00] that's awesome yeah by the way there was one last thing that i just really loved the very last paragraph when it says then prince telemachus began to smile and met his father's eyes he did not let you may see like they're planning like they're in the know with each other like there's this little connection that they have yeah and then they took the gift of sleep oh they all shared their dinner equally was also nice yes right yeah the three of them they all shared their dinner equally that's a

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_03] very symbolic thing you know and then the thing that he's smiling about is so you may have says looking out and he says oh i did see one more thing as i passed the hill of hermes right above the town i saw a ship draw into harbor full of men and loaded up with shields and spears i thought it could be them the suitors but i cannot be sure i think the thing that he's smiling about is no that was me and all

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_03] the treasure and like that fucking hefestus bowl and all that that's coming aboard uh so maybe it's that this bowl right here yeah exactly so i thought is that the thing he's smiling about or maybe it's the dumbass suitor scouts that went out there to kill him which i kind of like that's what i thought like the ones who were trying to ambush him either way telemachus is like feeling himself a little bit

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03] there great telemachus yeah beautiful yeah all right join us next time uh 17 and 18 uh things are gonna heat up and yeah we're coming to the great interpretive question that i want to pose to you all right join us next time on the lotus eaters the lotus eater