The Lotus Eaters Episode 7: Lying Odysseus [unlocked]

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to

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[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00] Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. We are going to be discussing books 13 and 14 of Homer's Odyssey for this episode. We are back on Ithaca. It is the second half of the book. Yeah, it's a little sleepier. You know, the pace has slowed down quite a bit since the last four books where the pace was just galloping with all his adventures.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02] Totally. Totally. It's more a little reflective. We needed it. Can't, you know, can't maintain that hectic pace.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's a slow burn now until we get to what we think is inevitable. Odysseus slaughtering the suitors. But what did you, we haven't talked about this at all. What did you think of these two books? What's your impression of kind of what's going on in the books?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02] And I, I mean, I really enjoyed them. I like, it feels like this little slow plotting before the plan comes together. And Athena and Odysseus together in book 13 kind of like, they're like almost like equals, you know, like, all right, let's, let's do it this way. Here's what we're going to do.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_02] Um, she's, she gets off on his ability to like be a trickster and deceive. And so she's like glad that he can. And she's like, all right, yeah, that's my boy. Let's do it this way then. Um, and, and so I like that. There's also in book 13, something that I appreciate a lot, which is there are hints of like theodicy. Like, why did you let this happen? How could you being able, like presumably being able to like control some of these things and knowing some of these things, like you couldn't even let my son know.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02] Like you're just letting him go off. How come this has happened to me? Um, it's, it had little hints of Job in that way.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And just, uh, he, yeah, he's, he's quite suspicious and legitimately so like 10 years, like he's been delayed. These, he's supposed to have Athena on his side. And, uh, where's she been all this time? She has, she's like ghosting him, uh, until he arrives at, on the Fiesian Island. And then she helps him out a little bit, but not as much as Nausicaa.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And the other thing that reminded me of Job is Poseidon goes to Zeus and is like, what the fuck with your boy? Like, you're going to just let him like do what he wants. And Zeus is like, no, no, no. Like, go ahead. Do like, do whatever you want. Like, we're not going to get in your way, which is very much like the adversary in the book of Job. When he comes up to God and says like, Hey, that's your boy. Like, but he's, you know, he's only your boy because you're favoring him. Uh, God's like, all right, do your thing. Like do whatever you want.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00] I don't think that's, that's, that analogy holds in this particular case. But what Poseidon is mad about isn't Odysseus and he can't take anything more out on Odysseus. Like Odysseus has gone to Ithaca. He has all the treasure. What he's mad about are the Phaeacians, the fact that they disrespected him. And what Zeus says isn't, you can do what you want to Odysseus. It's, you can do what you want to the Phaeacians. And so he does.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's more structurally like the God going to the other God saying like, you're letting them get away with this. Like, and it's not, it really, yeah. In Job, it's not like he's feeling disrespected. He's more just being like, are you sure this is? But like, yeah, this is disrespected.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02] But Zeus kind of has to give his like approval. Yeah. I'm not, yeah. To like, go ahead, do, do what you want, which is different than, than the way Zeus is talked about, you know, by like the religious people who are like Zeus go, you know, all loving and wise and caring of the stranger.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. Which is especially striking given that he is the God of hospitality and the Phaeacians were as hospitable as you could ask for to Odysseus. They did all the right things. They fed him before asking who he was. They, you know, they had to get like jogged into it by one of the elders, but they did everything.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00] And then helping him get back home, which is fated. So it's like, I had that same thought. Everyone is always talking about like Eumaeus in book 14 talks about how the gods are always, they care deeply about justice. And I think throughout, and this is the theodicy thing, you're always asking, well, do they though? You know, like do they really?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02] It's, it's, it's a simple view that it is always rewarded to be virtuous in this way. The people who are hospitable get like shit on the most. And that's just, that's just again, like the human condition. And that forces you or one or me at least to think if it weren't kind of risky to be hospitable to every single person, it wouldn't really be that virtuous.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02] And like, there is a courage in being willing to show hospitality. And not that that's the thought that these characters are having, but certainly a lesson that is learned. Like the Faecians got paid pretty poorly for their hospitality. Like it's just not a contract, it's not a contract with God that if you're good, everything will work out.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, totally agree. If I had to defend Poseidon, which I am not want to do, but if I had to, I, I would say, look, the Faecians heard the story of Odysseus saying he blinded Poseidon's son and they put this curse on him. And Poseidon's like their guardian God. They're like their ancestors.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00] And yet they still like, you know, give him a heap of treasure. And one of the things Poseidon says is if you come home and she'll be with no honor and empty handed. And so they, they did kind of fuck him over, I would say. So I think like, I think Poseidon has is reminds me a little of like Tommy from Goodfellas or like a lot of the Sopranos, like kind of heads, but they weren't really the head guy. They were, but they're someone that like feels

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00] like they have power, but they also have a huge chip on their shoulder and they feel disrespected. And that's, I think what Poseidon is. It's almost like the Faecians kind of took advantage of that or they were a little complacent about what they could get away with, with Poseidon. And Zeus is balancing a lot of things. Like, I don't think he gives a shit about Poseidon's beef with Odysseus, but you know, like Poseidon does have to show face to the rest of the gods.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00] He does have to like prove that he's not a laughing stock. So I kind of think Zeus is being a little diplomatic here too. He's being like, okay, don't kill all of them, but maybe turn this ship to stone and then maybe do a, put a mountain around them.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's like an embargo. It's like, it's like political sanctions.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. Like what we're doing to Cuba right now.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. So yeah. First of all, I like your Poseidon's advocate.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00] Well, you know, I've always had exactly your reaction and still do, but it is like kind of disrespectful.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, you're right. Because there's one thing to, to, you know, the way that the, like Xenia is like, from my understanding from the book carried out is like, okay, stranger comes, you, you do everything that you can to help them out. And then you listen to their story. But like, it's not a guarantee that once they hear you tell them the story that they're, they like, they don't have to keep being like on your side. Like if they're like, yeah, I wiped out your entire lineage and they can do whatever they want. Right.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02] So, so they're, they're going a little bit above and beyond. Right. In a way that Poseidon, you're right, is justified in taking it personally. And Zeus, this is what I never quite get. Like, you know, my grade school mythology is that Zeus is the high God. So is Zeus just, is there the hierarchy where Zeus really is at the top at this point in the mythology? Or is it just like, oh, he's, his domain is different.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00] Like he's the top guy, you know, there's the Olympian gods, but Zeus, he has the power. Poseidon is one A though, supposedly. And so someone like Athena is a little lower. Apollo is a little lower, you know. So, so of the Olympian gods, he's definitely the top, but he has to keep people happy.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, there really is like a, like a king or a family or a politician, or he has to make sure, like, there's a lot of politics that are delicate to navigate. And with someone like Poseidon, who is so sensitive and about being disrespected, that's why I think it's like the Tommy thing is what comes to mind. They all like him, but they also get that he has this chip on his shoulder and everyone else is going to have to deal with the fallout from that, you know?

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00] And so they want to minimize it as much as possible.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to sense what, whether Zeus is like, all right, whatever, do what you have to do, or whether he's actually being indifferent. Like, that's fine. Like, I don't, like, I'm not saying you can't do that. You know?

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00] This read through, I got the sense that he is trying to do the best he can for the Phaeacians. Like, he is giving a, the lowest plea bargain that he can envision that would still satisfy Poseidon. And remember, like, immediately they all realize what's happening, the Phaeacians. Like, oh, that prophecy was true, which, you know, arguably they should have deciphered before, given what Odysseus said.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00] And then they immediately start sacrificing. So it's not even clear that Poseidon is going to put the mountains around the island. We'll never know. Like, I don't know why it matters that much or why they would care, but, because they never leave anyway. Right. Right. But yeah, so I think, like, Zeus is trying to, he's having his client plead guilty, but, you know, trying to get him off with a light sentence. That's how I read it this time.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02] And now that you say that, like, it makes more sense to me. Like, I guess I hadn't thought of it that much. Where, like, there's, once they find out that he did that to the Cyclops, that Odysseus, once the Phaeacians find out that Odysseus did that to Cyclops, they should be loyal to Poseidon.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02] And this is part of Odysseus' charm. And, like, he just won them over with his, like, character, wits, charm, everything that we know Odysseus is good at. So that, like, might be, make Poseidon extra salty. Like, that they didn't, they weren't able to see through. They're just this, they're, like, and see that they're being disloyal.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00] I also don't, you don't get the sense from them that they really care that much about Poseidon in particular, though. Like, it seems more of a one-sided kind of, yes, ancestors, yes, you know, the Cyclops. But I think they had some bad interactions with the Cyclops. So it's no skin off their nose if a Cyclops dies. You're right, though. They were seduced by Odysseus' story. And just go, like, as an extra insult, just pile his ship with treasure.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And maybe that's why he had to go to the Queen first. Maybe that was the wisdom of, like, you know, flirting with the Queen a little bit. Yeah. Since she holds the power.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00] She holds the power, yeah. And, like, you could see that in some, you know, there's very little, if any, other, like, ancient sources where the Phoecians play a role. So maybe he did put the mountain around it. But, like, I could see, like, Alcinoos being in a, like, a Poseidon role. Like, if you did, like, a little spinoff series on the Phoecians.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00] One thing I wanted to bring up, which is I might have a different reaction to these books than you do, is about where Odysseus is. I see book 13 as a point where Odysseus is a little broken down.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00] Like, he is, you know, the main thing that made me think that initially is just he has this, like, paranoid freakout, this, like, tantrum when he wakes up and there's a little mist on the – and he just immediately assumes that the Phoecians, like, ripped him off. Just completely, like, yeah, deeply paranoid shit there.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00] And then – so, number one – and then all these lies that he's telling to Athena, to Eumaeus. It's not totally clear what the strategy is to me. So I guess it's more complicated than this. But the way I would kind of summarize, like, in broadest strokes is that he's broken down right now. He doesn't know who he is. He doesn't know, like, what he is.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00] And he's very scared that other people won't recognize him as Odysseus. And he needs to get built up – built back up if he's going to fight the suitors. And he's not there yet. And these two books are part of maybe the beginning of – now that he's on Ithaca finally – of building him back up to be Odysseus. So that's what I've kind of always thought about these books and the couple that follow as well.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00] But, like, the mechanics of that and the specific interaction between Odysseus and Athena, which, you know, like, I agree. It does seem like they're kind of working together and they're matching wits and all that. So, like, I don't know how that fits into that story. You know, but the Eumaeus episode just strikes me as someone who's flailing a little bit. Like, he's just – his first instinct is to lie and to make up a new identity. But maybe it's like –

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02] And, like, a detailed one. He's like Jason Bourne with, like, 12 passports. Like, it's like he had a backstory with details.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00] With a lot of parallels to his own story. But not overly. So also, as we'll find out, some parallels to Eumaeus' story. So he may be trying to appeal to Eumaeus. But to what end? Like, Eumaeus is already, you know, in his corner as much as it possibly could be. And he keeps talking about wanting to test him. Like, why does he need to test Eumaeus after the first, like, two – like, none of this stuff fully makes sense to me.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00] Which is – makes me think he's just – he's flailing around a little bit and doesn't have his footing yet even though he's back home, quote-unquote.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02] So, okay. So here's my admittedly, like, not read it nearly as much as you. Reading it, I thought, okay, he lands. It's a little weird that, you know, he sleeps on the ship. He lands. They whisk him off the boat. And while he's still sleeping, so he wakes up on the beach, like, without even waking him up or anything. So he's a little confused. Athena purposefully puts mists around so that he won't recognize that it's Ithaca.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02] Like, from the go, like, she's doing that. And I thought, okay, she's purposefully tossing him into this confusion. I'm still not sure why. Maybe it was to stall him in, like, so that he wouldn't rush home. Like, if he immediately recognized his surroundings, he would run home. Right. She didn't want that to happen.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think that's right. That is – I think she says something to that effect. Or at least she says that any other man would have just rushed home and, like, hugged his – Yeah.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, she says – it says, Pallas Athena cast a mist upon it so that she could tell him how things stood and make him unrecognizable to his own wife and family and neighbors till he paid the suitors back for how they misbehaved.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I agree that, like – so she is purposely disorienting him and confusing him. But, ultimately, it's just mist. Like, there's no reason to think that the Faeacians, like, fucked you over. And there's no reason to assume they robbed you. First of all, it wasn't – it was all their stuff to begin with. Like, they gave it to you as gifts. So why would they just take it away? And then –

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, he definitely turned into an asshole for a second there. Yeah.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00] I just think, like, he is a little bit, like, hand-shy. He's, like, paranoid. He always thinks, like, the worst thing is going to happen to him. And that makes him so suspicious and skeptical of everything, including, like you said at the outset about, like, Athena. Are you trying to help me for real? Yeah. Because it at least shows that he has no trust right now that anything of any other person and anything good that's going to happen to him.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02] That's interesting. Like, the closer that he gets to home, the greater his insecurities are. And he's, like, confident at the beginning. And not just because all – because obviously, like, one reading is all this shit has happened to him. So, of course, he's going to be a little paranoid. But I think it really is, like, all that stuff that's been put in his head about, like, you know, Agamemnon, what happened there. And, like, is his wife really going to be, you know, faithful? And what's he going to find when he gets home?

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02] And maybe Athena is trying to, like, curtail that, like, his initial sort of impulses. But whatever is going on, it's certainly making him – just the anxiety. Like, the anxiety, the insecurity. Brave Odysseus is, as you say, like, broken down more than he has been before.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02] Because even before when he was weeping for his dead friends all over the place, it wasn't – he wasn't unsure of himself. No, that's right. The way that he is now.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And very pessimistic. He just can't believe that this is going to turn out well for him. And I think part of him, you know, I think the kind of psychic reason for that is he doesn't feel like Odysseus, the warrior for sure, or Odysseus, the king who once ruled over this. Like, he just, like, doesn't know, like, who he is.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00] And that's why I think the kind of flailing around for different identities and the – you know, you could definitely read as he's reluctant yet to claim his own identity. Like, I – it would be hard to think. You'll have to say when you get further in the book what the reason for stringing along this lie to Eumaeus is strategically. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00] And if there's no real strategic benefit for it, then, like, you have to think of, like, other reasons for why. You know what I mean?

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess we'll talk about it more. I figured in part of his paranoia, he wanted to be, like, the most loyal guy to him that he remembers. Like, he wanted to be 100%. Yeah. Like, this guy wouldn't sell me out for any reason. Yeah.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, and I think partly I'm influenced a little bit by, like, certain things that come later in the book in this. And I remember lecturing on this book. It was the first time when you're lecturing on it, you really dig deep into it. And then there's certain questions that I had never asked before. It's like, why is he acting like this? What's he up to? What's the point of all this? And it was hard to find one that related to the straightforward surface plot.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00] I want to go deep into his story that he tells, too, because I think that's doing some psychological work. But, like, the interaction with Athena. So let me ask you this basic question, which I've gone back and forth about. When he first sees Athena as a shepherd, does he know that that's Athena already?

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02] I assumed no, like, with some certainty. Not because I'm certain now, but, like, it seemed clear to me when I was reading it that no. Well, he pretends not to. In particular because he hasn't recognized her before. But now I'm curious. Like, what do you think? Because he makes up that elaborate lie for her, too, which is...

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so here's one way that I have read it in the past. And I don't even know if I agree with this. But, you know, there's that line where, you know, he's having this paranoid freakout. But then he sees this shepherd and it says, Odysseus was overjoyed to see her. He cried, oh, friend, you are the very first person that I met here. Greetings, right?

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00] So it's like, why would he be so overjoyed to see a shepherd if he didn't think it was Athena? There's also the overjoyed to see her. But that's like, yeah, you can't say much about that. But then, like you said, he comes up with this, you know, this lie about being from Crete. And so this doesn't fit with my earlier reading that I was just saying before. But, like, maybe he knows, like you said, she gets off on this shit. She loves it.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02] She's like Jimmy. Jimmy and what's her name on Better Call Saul when they're conning together. Yeah, and Kim. Kimmy.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00] Kim, yeah. So, like, that's exactly. Like, he knows she's going to love it.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02] He also says, by the way, like on your point, I pray to you right after he says, like, that he's happy to see her. I pray to you and supplicate as if you were a god. I touch your knees. Yeah, exactly. So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00] And then she, like, she bursts into this big smile and she changes back into Athena. And she says, to outwith you and all your tricks, a person or god would need to be an expert at deceit. You clever rascal, so duplicitous, so talented at lying. You love fiction and tricks so deeply. You refuse to stop even in your own land. Yes, both of us are smart. No man can plan and talk like you. And I am known among the gods for insight and craftiness. You failed to recognize me.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00] So I think he knew well enough that it had to be her that recognized him and not him that, you know, if you're going with this reading, he was tactful, which we know that he is, and smart enough to know that Athena loves having him as a equal or near equal, but not as a someone who can outwit her. Right.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. That doesn't fit with, like, I'm saying he's broken and he's, but, like, I do, I kind of like that reading of this particular season.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02] It's not inconsistent, but, like, I believe he would snap into his cunningness. Yeah. Like, the minute he came across someone, he just goes into that mode.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, like he did with the Phoecians at times. Yeah. Like, he knows how to, how to, how to do this.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. This part. Yeah. And I guess it is important that she's, because my thought too was like, no, she is, she says you didn't recognize me, but I guess that's the goal.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00] That would be the goal in this. Yeah. Because he knew.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02] I'm still like, my biggest question is like the, like the detail with which he lies to both Athena and then Timaeus. Like it's, but it sounds like you have some, some theories about the content of those lies.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. This one, not as much. Although, you know, it's really, you know. Is he the same character?

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02] I didn't pay, pay attention. They're both from Crete, but they're different. They're both from Crete.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00] Let's see.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02] I figured I might've been missing something about what, you know, whether Crete was important somehow.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00] Not that I know of. I come from distant Crete. I am in exile. Yeah. Oh no, maybe not. Maybe it's the same story. He doesn't say that he was a bastard child in this.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02] No, maybe it's not. I feel like one, one reading of this for me was that like. Lying is so second nature to him. Yeah. And you're like, maybe we know people like this. Yeah. Where it almost comes easier or if not totally comes easier than, than telling the truth. Yeah. It's just this default mode.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00] It's this, yeah. Just absolute instinct, default way of interacting with people. With Athena though, like that's, that works, you know, she loves that. And I think you pointed out this really nicely with the stuff on the Fiesian Island. Like he knows how to talk to royal people. He knows how to talk to, to people from good families. And he knows how to talk to gods. Yeah.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00] He knows the levers to push and the, the amount of respect, but also still dazzle them, but never make them feel like you're better than them. You know, I think he's very good at that.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, you know, like now he wasn't always, but I think he is now. And also part of that is he has been humbled. All right. So then, uh, she tells him I'm going to make, and this is also weird, right? But now I will disguise you. So no human can recognize you. I will shrivel up the fine skin of your supple arms and legs, ruin your hair and dress you in rags. So everyone will shudder seeing you.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00] And I will cloud your eyes to make you seem ugly to all the suitors and your wife and to the son you left at home. It's an interesting choice. Like, it seems like there's a lot of ways you could have disguised him to disguise him as, uh, someone who has shriveled up and, uh, clouded eyes and to make everybody shudder. It doesn't seem like you would have to go that route, right?

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02] No, you can make him another good looking guy.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. You just didn't look anything like, uh, Odysseus.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, is it, is it to test? Well, yeah, I don't know what it would be testing. Cause like, why, why would it be required of like his wife and his son to respect this old man, you know? Like, are they supposed to see his character through this? Like, is it that people who truly know him will see his character through the disguise?

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00] Or is it that, you know, but I don't know why Odysseus would be so concerned about this, but will you be nice, uh, and hospitable to beggars? You know, like, again, if you want to read this, which is very increasingly tempting to me as some kind of intra-psychic journey, like, you know, like maybe he worries that he is this ugly. He is this unappealing. He is, uh, like, uh, yeah.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00] And it'll make you seem, uh, like this. Cause maybe you worry that you are like this.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, yeah, I like that a lot. That that's totally like, that's his. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to have to deal with, you know, and she tells him earlier, you must bear this fate bravely.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe Athena's being nice. She's like, oh, I'm going to turn you ugly. I'm going to shrivel up the fine skin of your supple arms and legs.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, yeah. On, by the way, on that, like just what I was saying before about like, I, I like some of the language here of, uh, questioning the justice of, of the gods when, when she reveals him herself and he's like, uh, I know you helped me during the Trojan war so long ago, but when we had sacked the town of Priam and we embarked and gods dispersed our fleet, I did not see you there on board of my ship, daughter of Zeus. You gave me no protection, lost and confused.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02] I waited for the gods to free me from my pain. Like that whole, where were you when I needed you?

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00] And her excuse for that is the, well, you know, like, I don't want to get Poseidon mad, um, because you blinded his, his beloved son, but that, that wasn't, that was way after what he's talking about here. So, you know, like, so, yeah.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02] Um, we also get this moment that felt like it just a nice, a nice for once sense of relief when, um, Athena makes, finally makes the mist disperse. Yeah. It says the land was visible. Odysseus after so long await and so much pain was filled with happiness at last. Enjoy. He kissed the fertile earth of his own country and lifted his high, his arms and prayed.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I agree. It's very nice. I also like the, the image of mist dispersing. It's like, you know, his mind has achieved some kind of clarity and like things make sense. However, temporarily things make sense. And yeah, it's beautiful. There's also one at the beginning of this book where he's about to get on the boat and the

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00] way they say it is he crossed the threshold, um, uh, when he's about to embark on the boat. And I like this as a kind of book into that. He crosses the threshold and now he's in this liminal space, as we love to say, uh, you know, and I think a lot of this section of the book is, is very liminal. Yeah. But at least at the end of book 13, there is a little clearing of the mist.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00] You know, he, he at least sees if he's not where he's going, he can at least see where he's going.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, totally. Yeah. Can you answer me just like one quick thing about the structure?

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02] Is there a reason that he is saying, and you, Eumaeus answered?

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So I have, you know, uh, I noticed that. So I did look into it and there's not a real settled explanation for it. There's a parallel in, uh, the Iliad. Yeah. The Homer will all of a sudden just out of the blue, even though it's been third person throughout, will suddenly start talking about Patroclus and he'll say, and you Patroclus, and this is before he died. Uh, you did this.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00] So, uh, one explanation that I just, in the research is that it's like someone that, uh, that Homer or whoever's composing this feels a deep affection for, and there's a kind of intimacy for it. And so, you know, Eumaeus really is like the kind of the moral core of the Odyssey in some ways.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00] He's a very uncomplicated, decent person who, um, you know, also has, has suffered and has done the best he can. He has remained loyal to everyone. Like that there's something just beautiful about that. And so, you know, Homer was honoring him by, by doing that. Um, you know, Patroclus was also, uh, a beloved character, especially by Achilles, but really

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00] nobody had any beef with Patroclus in the Iliad, which is very rare to find a character that that's true of. So, um, you know, like I, I think that's the, makes the most sense, but I don't know. There's not surprisingly a ton on that question.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02] Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00] And, and, you know, they don't do it like all the time. There's just a few times where he does it.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02] There's just a few times. It made me think like, you could imagine this story being told around a campfire in Hades, you know, or like in Jedi heaven and Eumaeus by dint of his like beautiful, virtuous life is among the most rewarded in the afterlife. And so he's there when the story is being told. Yeah. Um, you know, maybe Odysseus and Eumaeus are telling this story in the afterlife or something. Yeah.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I guess. Yeah. So it's like Eumaeus, you replied and then just, just a couple paragraphs later, but the upright swineherd answered. I like your idea that it's like, if, if he's there, but it's a campfire story, you wouldn't always say you, you would sometimes just tell the story as if he wasn't there. And other times you'd be like, oh, and you did this, like maybe like, oh, what a, now

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00] this was a truly decent thing to do, truly virtuous thing to do. And so, you know, so yeah, I like that. Um, one of the things that I, uh, was alert to on this reread, there's so many just references to how nobody is doing anything. Uh, like he had to, uh, you know, protect the pigs or he had to build his little place with

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00] no help from Laertes who's Odysseus's father or Penelope. And then he had to buy this slave, I guess, which he can buy. And it seems like nobody else is helping him and nobody is working together. You know, like, I mean, we, we, we've noted before how stalled and stultifying everything seems on Ithaca, like they can't hold a council meeting. They, this time it was, you know, especially targeted on Laertes and Penelope herself.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00] Um, even though he clearly has a deep affection for Penelope. So it's like, it really is also giving a sense of how Ithaca is. It's so stagnant. It's not working. It's not functioning. Um, yeah.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02] And the things that have to keep working that like nobody that everybody takes for granted, somebody is doing them. And so this household has continued to run, not in the absence of the person to run the household, but in the replacement of that person with an ignored person who has nonetheless like continued his duty, hoping against hope, like for all of these years.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00] And even with him, you could ask like the, uh, the suitors just come, he says, and take all the, the best pigs. And it says he had no choice. He had to satisfy their cravings for fresh meat. And like, I don't think that that's wrong, but it's a question which you always have over this about the suitors, which is why is, why are everyone letting this happen?

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00] You know, why are, why is everybody in this, in this Island that is apparently very loyal to Odysseus, not like defending his household, his wealth, his family, his son. Why is it only Eumaeus that, that has to do that? And even he is kind of like, yeah, I guess take the pigs, take the best one.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, I understand, like, I get that he is a slave and an old man, so he can't do shit. Like they're, they have power over him, but I do like that he is the only one who seems to be upholding his duty to this, to the like long lost king, to the point of having, you know, the half wild dogs roaming the, the perimeter. Yeah.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00] Um, yeah. And, you know, he does Zinnia, like if you wanted to look up a guide to Zinnia, you know, he does it perfectly. He, uh, gives him like really good food, doesn't ask him any questions and also tells him a little bit about him, like tells him about Odysseus, you know, tells him, uh, all of that and praises the gods. And this is where he says, uh, now guests eat up.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00] This is a poor slave's meal, a suckling pig. The suitors eat the hogs. Their hearts have no compassion. They ignore the gods who watch and hate such crimes and bless good deeds and justice. It's like, even Odysseus is probably like, are we sure?

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02] Are we sure that they do that? That's what my note in this margin is. Do they? Do they? Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know. It's, I like that it's bringing that back up, but in like a different way. It's not Odysseus complaining about it. It's maybe somebody being a little too gullible about.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's sad too, but like, this is a case where human morality outshines the morality of the gods. Yeah.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00] And maybe that's why he gets the you treatment. Yeah.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02] Um, I love how he's like just talking and he's like, by the way, he's like in this like lapses into some autistic phase where he starts listing off the number of cattle herds that he has and the number of fingers. It's like, I'll list all of it. Yeah. 12 herds of cattle on the mainland. 12 of sheep and 12 of babies.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00] And, but you know, meanwhile, Odysseus is getting food and wine and well, a couple of things are interesting. So he says, look, I want to talk. I've heard about Odysseus. I could give you some news with a good news about him. And this, and Eumaeus says his, though his wife and son will not trust travelers who claim to bring them news. Tramps always lie to get a meal.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, they have no cause to tell the truth and that Penelope, she welcomes these people and cries when they talk, but it's, it's never been real. And then, and then, so that's kind of interesting. Again, planting this seed that they might not believe you like that you're Odysseus. And don't fuck with them. Like they've been fucked with enough. Yeah. And don't fuck with them. Like that's Eumaeus being, yeah, exactly defensive of them.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, but then also just saying like these grisly ways in which he is surely dead. And it's, it's like, he's so pessimistic about Odysseus being alive. And, you know, like, I don't know if it's like a reverse jinx, like, or he doesn't, or he doesn't want false hope or if it's like, he really believes that. But Telemachus did that earlier. Like, uh, a lot of people have just kind of assumed he's dead.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00] And that's also kind of interesting.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's like defensive pessimism, you know, like that. Yeah. Like convincing yourself it's bad with the, like, just the hope that you'll be wrong.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. I do that all the time. So like, I get it, but it is, you know, it's kind of funny that Odysseus has to keep hearing that from him.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02] He's like, I did not die that way. Um, like I felt a little bad for him, uh, for Emmaus because he's like, I grieve less for my own family than for Odysseus. I miss him. So I hesitate to call him by his name, stranger. I would prefer to call him brother. Um, and I'm thinking, I wonder if Odysseus is like, uh, I don't know about that. Yeah.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00] I, I'm, I, yeah. I don't know. Like he's so good and it does seem like Odysseus was very good to him.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02] Um, when I'm sure it is, it was just a funny thought that like, oh, this is like, brother,

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00] let's, let's. So number one, they're saying like, they think that all these travelers are liars because they always have been. And then Odysseus says this is, I'm not lying. This is no tall tale. Uh, I hate like Hades Gates, the man who caves to poverty and poverty and starts to lie. And it's like, but you are like the, the big liar of like all of Greek mythology.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00] Like you're even described in an epithet as like the crafty liar or the, you know, the champion liar, forget what the, so it's, it's, again, I think this is speaking to his insecurities. Like his family thinks he's dead and they won't trust him, uh, when he might say that he's Odysseus, you know, and maybe he really does look like this old guy, uh, or at least that's what he fears he looks like.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00] And so like, yeah, how are you supposed to convince them that? I mean, this will come back, but how are you supposed to convince them that you are Odysseus? Um, there's no ID, there's no, you know. Yeah.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02] That's interesting because there's, he can't pull off the mask like mission impossible style because I was reading this and I was like, okay, is he going to reveal that he's actually Odysseus at the end to Emmaus, like at the end of this chapter and be like, you good servant, you've like earned your reward, but he can't really. Yeah. Like, cause he's still, he's still under the, the spell of, uh, yeah.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. If it's even a spell or if that's just how he looks, cause it's been 20 years and he's been stranded at sea for like all this time. I mean, yeah. So Athena did like, but you could read that as more metaphorical. And so this is a real deep source of like insecurity. Like, how are they going to like, how am I going to convince them that I'm really Odysseus? And do I even believe myself that I am really Odysseus? I feel like that is a question he's also asking.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00] And one of the ways of avoiding like a reckoning with that answer is to just make up that I'm this guy from Crete, you know, and sort of circle around my identity without actually, uh, facing up to my identity. Yeah. So what do you think of the story that he then tells you, Emmaus?

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I like, as I was reading it, I was like, I don't know where he's going with this, but like, it's so damn specific that I was like, I must be missing something, you know, like all his tales of, of going to Egypt and Phoenicia and, and Libya and like a Phoenician screwed him over. I don't know. I have zero like context for any of this stuff.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02] So other than he's telling a, a story that gets as close to the turmoil that he's been through without telling any of the details of his own turmoil.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00] So one way of just understanding it is, yeah, he's trying to come to terms with certain aspects of his past, but he can't do it fully. Um, and so he's creating this other identity that has some parallels and even some very direct parallels like fighting it at Troy for nine years. And, but then also a lot of differences that don't seem that relevant or like, how is the

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00] fact that he is a, uh, the bastard son of the King and a concubine? Like, how does that relate to Odysseus? So maybe we'll get more info about that when we hear you may as a story, which comes in the next book. But I guess the thing about that is he just told the Phoecians, like, it seems like he was brutally honest about what happened just like, uh, uh, the previous day. So maybe it's something about, yes, but to say it, to say it to total strangers on the

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00] other side of the earth, fine. But like maybe to say it to somebody that I was loyal to me and that I abandoned, that's too hard. Uh, cause there's a couple of things like the, the part about him going to war. And he says like, he says, the people wanted me to sail to Troy with Idomenus, Idomenius. We had no choice. Their will was strong constraining us. So it's like, what does that mean?

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, and is it that Odysseus, he's trying to say, I didn't have a choice. Like, is he reckoning with his own choice to sail to Troy, um, and abandon his island, which is completely non-functioning without him, abandon his infant child and his wife. And his father and his mother, people who were loyal to him. Like, is that like something he wants to say to himself right now? Their will was strong. I had no choice. Is he, is he dodging the question?

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's funny because, because he doesn't like, if you're just going to make up a random lie, it really then doesn't matter as long as it's convincing. If your only goal is to not be found out as Odysseus and give a plausible backstory, you could just be a merchant, you know, shipwrecked merchant. Like it doesn't matter. Yeah. Um, but you're right. He's constructed this whole alternate character in this sort of like broken ego, Mr. Robot style,

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02] where like maybe believes for a second that this is, that he's been thinking on this. Like, this is the story that he's told himself. Like maybe, maybe he's this man who was dreaming that he was Odysseus, but that's really who he is. Yes, exactly.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00] And then the other thing like that is he says that immediately when he got back, so he came back for a second. Right. Right. And then he says, but, uh, but then I left again. That was how I was in war. I did not like farm work or housekeeping or raising children. I liked sailing better in war with spears and arrows, deadly weapons. Others may shudder at such things, but God's made my heart love them. People's preferences are different.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00] That to me strikes me as like, he was doing a lot of postponing getting home on the way back. And maybe it's because he didn't get that adventurous war. That's the thing that takes him into the Cyclops Island. That's the thing that, you know, just to see, is it really true that they don't give a shit about the gods and they're, uh, don't give gifts to guests? Like, like he's trying to come to terms with that. And he's, is he asking himself, is it that I didn't want to have some boring domestic life?

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, and then if it is that, well, uh, that's what the gods made me do, you know? So again, it's kind of that deflecting of responsibility a little bit too. So I don't know, but like.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02] And yeah, I'd like to, to, you know, like as, as these chapters continue, maybe like keep an eye on the lies that he's going to tell people as they go. Because it does seem like something Odysseus would do is craft a lie and create an identity that specifically fulfills a purpose for each person that he's telling. Yes, for sure. And try to figure out what exactly the purpose is for each of them.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02] It's, but he's trying on identities. He's like putting on these hats. It's like, he really is. It's the theme that we were talking about in previous episodes. He's trying to find himself again. How do you, how do you know who you are? Like you were just saying after that many years gone, it's like, who are you? You're, who are you? You're not the, certainly not the person who left.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, exactly. So this is like somebody like circling like a cold lake that they don't want to, uh, dive into. And like you're dipping your toe in it, uh, you know, and just trying to, you know, like figure out a way to get yourself into it. But being scared of actually facing up to what that will entail. And like, I think.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02] And somebody who's like core talent is circling.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02] Like that is what he's known for. Like that is what has gotten him out of so many problems. Like his ability to lie. Yeah. Like is, is, is the one true part of his identity that we know. Yeah.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_00] His ability to like dance around trouble and figure out a like, yes, absolutely. And I think the other thing which you were saying just now, which is also apt, is this is also crafted, not just for him to reckon with who he is, but also for Eumaeus. Just as the, the story for Athena was also crafted for Athena. She's gonna love this.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00] If I know Athena, she's gonna get all wet hearing me make up some bullshit, you know, like, so he is also doing like, I want to make you happy. He, you know, he did that with Arate. He did that with the Phoecians. Like just make you happy. Do what you want and tailor this exactly to you. And that, and that's great. Except when you maybe have lost track with what's actually true.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Which is an interesting, like in a meta sense, like the Phoecian stories within the text are all true. But should we believe them? Yes.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly. No, that's right. I mean, we know that the Cyclops is true just from other events. Yeah. But absolutely, that's a real question. And we talked about this in the Land of the Dead, like all the women coming first and getting with that for Arate, you know, like, so. So, yeah. It's fascinating. Like even in, you know, a fairly, you know, like opposite of action packed couple of books, there's so much to think about.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02] It's so much there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like your lens of the, if it's all a trip into the psyche, it matters less whether it's outward action or telling lies. Yeah.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, like it does feel always like he is diving into the pit of his own uncertainty about who he is and how he will be recognized by his homeland, the people in his homeland and his family. Yeah.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02] I also like that the structure that we've gotten in this journey is now, like he's now circling the place that he's to get to. Like this is like, he's on the outer limits of his land out where the slaves are with his things. So it's building something, some tension about what's going to happen.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00] He's on the periphery, but he is, you know, he's trying to figure out, can I infiltrate? Can I get into my own house? Yeah.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And at this point, it's like, I don't feel like he's any closer to home in these chapters really than I have felt the whole time. Like, I know he is. I know he finally is in Ithaca, but it still seems like I'm with him in that this journey has been so long that like, it's hard to believe that there's any point at which he will finally see Penelope. Finally see Telemachus.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But it's a choice to not, like he could, this is a loyal swineherd. Athena told him he was loyal. He didn't need to do an elaborate test. Imagine what a relief it might have been to just say, it's me, it's Odysseus. Now let's figure out how to get those motherfucking suitors and like spill their guts all over the floor. Like, but he chooses not to do that, keeping himself more on the periphery and like arguably than he needs to given, you know, how loyal. For sure.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Athena even says like, you son of a gun, like anybody else would have immediately asked about Penelope and Telemachus and you haven't yet. So he's like kind of enjoying the game or, or maybe doesn't know how not to. Yeah. Or maybe is scared to learn the answer.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00] Or maybe is scared.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Uh, well, we will come back in the next episode, talk about book 15 and 16. We will see a, the reuniting of, uh, Telemachus and Odysseus and the beginnings of a plan. And then we're going to get into the books where I'm going to have a big question to ask you. Like my strongest interpretive, uh, view on this text is coming up in the next couple episodes.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_00] So, or the next few episodes. So stay tuned. Yeah.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02] You know what I was thinking as we were reading this? I wish I would have thought of this before, uh, but maybe we can even just have a little discussion at the end. Which scenes would you put in the movie? Yeah. Let's do that at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Cause like there are some where I'm like, this has to be in the, you know, like this has to be, so I'd like to create my list of scenes.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00] Um, I think every scene here would have to be like, you have to have him arriving on Ithaca doing the thing with Athena and then going to see Eumaeus. Like, you know, it's not that much that happens, but you need some like version of both those scenes.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And even shots like the mist revealing Ithaca. Yeah.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_00] Like, you know. And, and, and, well, we should save this, but like the, do you need to show the Poseidon Zeus? Like, all right, yeah, do what you want. Uh, here, try this. You know, I don't know. Depends how they're planning on handling, uh, how they handle the gods is a big question

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02] for me. Cause like I could see you could play it subtle.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, you're making a statement either way. If you take it totally literally, you're saying like the gods are as real as anything. If you don't have them or hardly have them, then you're thinking, are these metaphors? Are these, you know? Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02] Like, yeah.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, that's, yeah. I, I, yeah. I'm so pessimistic about that. A movie can do this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02] That's why I like to think more. What would I do? Like, you know, the movie will be the movie. The decisions that he has to make will be the decisions, but, but we should do, we should maybe even have an episode where we cast our own Odyssey.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. You're saying you wouldn't necessarily have Zendaya as Athena.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_02] Jason Bourne.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00] But this is the problem. Like this is, I'm so glad you're reading the whole book before you see the movie because like, I think you have to have that. Like it would be unfortunate for someone to see the Odyssey and then have them in your minds first. In your head. Yeah. As you're reading. So, yeah. All right. But I like that idea. We should definitely do that. Just craft our own Odyssey. The Very Bad Wizards Odyssey. All right. Join us next time on The Lotus Eaters.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02] The Lotus Eaters.

[00:54:53] Thank you.