The Lotus Eaters Episode 9: An Ode to Argos [unlocked]

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02] drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00] Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters. So we are going to talk about books 17 and 18. Odysseus goes to town, sees his dog, gets into

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00] his palace, begs for food, stools are flying everywhere. These are fun and fascinating books leading up to what I think is the best book in all of the Odyssey, book 19. But I love these two. What did you think of them?

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02] I loved them. I mean, I've been enjoying reading every book, but this time I was sad to be finishing up the second book. Like I was like, oh, come on, like just a little more, make this one longer. But yeah, I didn't know that the footstool was like the weapon of choice in the Bronze Age.

[00:02:11] Apparently.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Did any thematic ideas, did anything jump out at you about kind of what's going on?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing for me is the self-control and patience that has to be demonstrated by Odysseus and Telemachus where, you know, they're formulating a plan and they're constantly being tested. And they have to like just like exert this, what I imagine is a tremendous amount of will to not do the thing that they are really tempted to do.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02] And that just more broadly is like a sign of the mark of their character. And like throughout this really feels like these scenes back at Odysseus's palace are, it's like a big lab where you're testing out people's morality and some people pass, some people fail miserably. Yeah. And even like the, just the deception, you know, it's like requiring, it seems to be like a lot, you know, having to lie to your mom and to your favorite slave.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00] The worst example is when he sees his dog Argos and he has a tears like coming out.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like you should have warned me about this.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00] I know, like everyone has to experience that fresh for the first time.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02] Oh my God, man. I was like literally tearing up.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00] It's horrible. I had to go down and like, I was reading up here and I had to go down and hug Trixie like immediately afterwards.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02] But sorry, say you were saying that as an example of.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00] Of just, he had to keep him, like he couldn't just go over and hug his dog. He had to just keep walking, you know, cause that would have revealed him to Eumaeus. And for some reason he doesn't want Eumaeus to know still. I'm going to go hug your flea ridden, like manure bedside dog. Although you see, cause Melanthio, the goat herd is out there. He's got to keep it under control. Even, you know, setting aside Eumaeus.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02] And they had a moment and it's like the purest moment because there's all this deception that has to happen. These layers of deception in order to test people, to make sure they're on your side, like to not foil the plans for revenge. And with Argos, it's like just a pure moment of perception that cuts straight through. He knows exactly who Odysseus is. Odysseus knows who he is and that's all that's required. And like the dog, Argos can die after that. Yeah.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00] It's a beautiful thing. It's beautiful and heartbreaking. And I mean, Argos, I think, you know, we get the story of him too, before he dies, of how this happened. You hear how, like, it was okay at first and then just kind of everyone slowly started to abandon him. I had a student write that Argos kind of represented Ithaca. It was this thing that's kind of wasting away from neglect and nobody kind of stepping up to do anything about it.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00] And I think that's plausible to some degree.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And when you come to Ithaca, not if, but when you come to Ithaca, we can go have a drink at the Argos Inn. Nice. Which has a nice bar. Oh, that'd be fun.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So in the last few books, we've been talking about this idea that there's kind of a parallel intra-psychic journey that Odysseus is taking. And there's some grist for that in these two books, I think. You know, there's a lot of things that he says about his character that also seem to apply very well to him. But then this time, I also had the vibes of Ithaca being kind of haunted by Odysseus, like he's a ghost or something that's come to kind of haunt the suitors.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00] And you can see like the good suitor, Amphimous or whatever, he's starting to feel bad and everyone's starting to get a little like maybe worried about what it is they're doing. I got some like High Plains Drifter vibe from this. Yeah. You know, like he's kind of making them dig their own graves, the suitors, you know, by like making them show their true colors. And it's funny because like I love High Plains Drifter.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00] And that's a story about a man coming to like as like a ghost to haunt this town that betrayed probably him or, you know, like a relative of his. But, you know, that's played by Clint Eastwood. He's like the baddest motherfucker in like just an absolute like no account town from the get go. But what's interesting about this is Odysseus is a beggar.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00] And so like he is both at the same time thought of as weak and pathetic and someone to hurl stools at or to like, you know, get into like a cock fight with another beggar.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02] It's like the first bum fights like ever. Do you remember there were like bum fights where they would actually like. Oh, yeah.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And like the 30s, right?

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02] No, no, no. I'm talking about like in the like early 2000s. It was terrible. Like people would pay like homeless people to fight each other and record it. Oh, yeah. You could like buy, you know, like shitty DVDs of like bum fights.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So anyway, the point is like he might be the ghost, but he's also being haunted himself. It seems like. And so like that interested me this time around. But lastly, I think we've reached the big interpretive question that I can finally ask you, although I don't think you should give any like major judgment about it until book 19 and then book 23 will also weigh into it. But I think we have enough here for me to pose the question.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00] So let me just ask you first, and I don't want to sway you, but I also don't want to be coy. So here it is. Do you think Penelope, by the time we get to the end of these two books, has recognized Odysseus already?

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02] Without you asking that question, I would have said no. Like the text seems like no. No, but now that you say that, like, I think I was toward the end when she wants to go show herself all prettied up. Like I was thinking, like, if Odysseus was there, this would be something that she would do. But think about that.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00] If she thought Odysseus was there, right? Why would she say, hey, all right, Odysseus told me to marry someone. If he didn't come home, I'm ready to do that. Right. But what's interesting about that scene, and maybe we should just wait to get to it, is Odysseus loves to hear her say that. He was very pleased. Like, so I guess where I stand on this question is she has, and that probably Odysseus already knows that.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00] Even though, like, they've yet to talk, that's in book 19 where they're going to have, like, what I think is just absolutely just fascinating conversation. But I think there's a bunch of things that make a lot more sense if you think she at least has a strong suspicion that he's back.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I have no problem with that interpretation. I think it actually fits very well. It's obviously underdefined with the literal words of the text. Yes. But that makes sense. Like, it would be, otherwise it would be a coincidence that she says the thing about the gifts and he loves it. But, I mean, it could be that he's just happy that she's wise. Like, if he had really said, okay, if, like, you know, by the time my son grows a beard, you should pick someone to marry, then, like, she should be milking it for all it's worth. And maybe that's the moment where she's like, fuck it, I gotta do this.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But it fits well with, like, your thing about, like, Odysseus being a ghost that's haunted. It seems as if he's loomed large in everybody's mind, even though they somehow ignored what was going on in Ithaca. And now that he's back, the amount of times that people feel the need to say, well, he's long dead, it's just, like, protesting too much. That's right.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00] And I really like the idea of only his dog and his wife. But, yeah, there's a bunch of things. So let me just list a few of them. So first of all, we know he can be recognized because Argos recognized him. Second, Penelope is told by our friend from the early books. Or maybe it's 15, you know, the guy on the run.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02] Thera, like, the prophet. Yeah.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, he's a prophet murderer. He tells Penelope, I'm telling you, I had a prophecy. He is on this island right now. And so that's, like, in her mind as she kind of overhears what's going on. And when she hears what is going on downstairs, she says to call the stranger to come see her. And he says, yeah, Eumaeus, have the stranger come to me so I may welcome him. Ask if he has heard or witnessed anything about long-lost Odysseus.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00] Now, again, you could read this as she does that because she just wants to hear something good. Right? But then she says, if Odysseus came back to his own native land, he and his son will soon take vengeance for their violence. And then Telemachus sneezes and the noise resounds through the hall and she starts just laughing. And she says, call the stranger. My son just sneezed at what I said. You heard? It's a sign of death for all the suitors. No one can save them from their ruin now. And she's, like, giddy at this point. Like, she has not acted like this at any point.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00] And she's always just, oh, I'm going to go and I'm going to cry and I'm going to just stain my bed with tears. But now she's just laughing. She's actually laughing. I think she's, you know, if it's more subliminal than, like, explicit, maybe. But this, like, and then in book 18 where she does that, like, a plot may be in motion on her end as well.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, maybe. It's interesting because, like, I think it's a decent read to say that she both believes it and doesn't. Like, hope is growing and so she might start planning. Because she repeatedly also says, like, no, I lost my looks the day that he left. And she does appear to be also dejected. But you're right that she does have that moment of optimism or at least of joy where maybe she's starting to suspect. Maybe even when he turns her down, like, when he says, no, I can't see her tonight.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00] Like, she seems to understand. Like, I honestly think, I know I'm kind of deep into this. I think they're, like, sending messages to each other at that point already.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02] Like blinking in Greek Morse code.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's like, you know, like a wife knows her husband's voice.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a lot that you have to sort of, like, you're trusting that Athena has masked him properly. But it's not, like, beyond Athena to make him, you know, knowable to his wife should she open her heart to the possibility that this is him.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00] And to be clear, I actually don't think Athena knows this.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02] Well, again, what do the gods know? So fucking...

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00] Well, we know that they don't know everything about us. No, I know.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02] But we also know that they, like, weirdly do know a lot, like, if they want to. Yeah. But, yeah, I think that's totally plausible.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00] We'll see. You know, there's a big scene between the two of them next book. So where I think the best case that you can make for the recognition comes there. But then there's something that comes later that, you know, that undermines it. So it's a really interesting question, except that it also isn't because there's one right answer, I think. They're so sick of me in the Honors College about this question. All right. Should we go through it? Yeah, let's do it.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02] Theoclyminus. Sorry.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00] I just... Theoclyminus. Yeah, there it is. I have it in my notes. Yeah. So we begin at Eumaeus' place. Telemachus kind of arranging things after meeting with his father. They're kind of, like, trying to put their plan into action. He really has his shit together. And part of what Telemachus has to do is be a little bit like, you know, this beggar, I can't deal with everything. Tell him to go beg for food himself, you know. But I got to go to see my fucking mother because she won't believe I'm safe until she sees me.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02] It's so funny how, like, one of the things he says here is, I always like to tell the honest truth. And it's just, like, exactly the kind of shit Odysseus would say. He's just falling right into line.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. He's really a chip off the old block there. So he goes to the palace first. He sees Penelope. Penelope is also very happy to see him. And then they welcome in Theoclyminus, the murderer prophet. I don't remember. Like, he was on the run from somewhere, although mostly we heard about his great-grandfather.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it's very rare. He's like, please take me on your ship. Like, I'm a murderer. But, like, here is the lineage of my people.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I don't think he even told it, right? Did we? No. Yeah, no.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02] It's like third person. It's like, yeah.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00] I love what Telemachus tells Piraeus. So Piraeus is one of his, like, friends who was with him on the voyage, who has all the gifts that Menelaus gave, including that fucking bowl crafted by Hephaestus. So Piraeus is holding all the gifts, says, let me bring them. And Telemachus says, no, like, if this doesn't turn out well for me, I'd rather you have them than the suitors. And if it turns out okay, then, you know, we'll all be happy. If I plant doom among them, then we can share the gift.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00] And then Theoclymenus tells the prophecy.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And when I saw it, I was like, dude, like, come on. This is supposed to be a secret.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00] I swear by Zeus and hospitality and by the hearth of great Odysseus, the place where I have come, he is already here in Ithaca at rest or on his way. That's the best piece of evidence for your story.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02] Like that is textual evidence. Like, unless you don't believe in the prophets, which I do, and I know you do too.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00] Well, we know the prophet is right. Like, so the question is whether Penelope would believe the prophet, not whether, you know, we believe. That's what I'm saying.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02] Like, I think she would have the faith to believe in the prophet. Like you and I have faith. At least I do.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00] But like, just to give some ammunition for the other side, Eumaeus was very hesitant about bringing Odysseus to Penelope in the first place because she's had a lot of people come tell her good news about Odysseus over the years. And all of those people were lying. So I think that there's reason to think she might be skeptical of that. But I also think with this in her mind and then hearing her husband's voice, I think she's on to it to some degree.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Meanwhile, Odysseus is being led into town. It says resembling a poor old beggar leaning upon a stick dressed in dirty rags.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02] It's such a common story. Like I think across cultures of the king dressed in rags among the people. So it's such a good way to keep everybody in line.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It's also, according to Helen's story, what Odysseus did in Troy. He dressed in rags to infiltrate Troy, but now he's just doing it in Ithaca. Right.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02] But here he's the king, you know.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00] Then we meet Melantheo, just this true piece of shit. And just immediately, unprovoked, just starts laying into Odysseus and Eumaeus. You foul pig man, where are you taking this old swine? A scrounger who will rub on many doors demanding scraps. He just wants to drink away and fatten his stick legs. Like what brings this on?

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02] It's just this like some people are mad at the homeless even now. You know, they're so angry.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. The other thing, maybe it's a pig-goatherd rivalry, you know. Yeah. And Odysseus, this is the first time he has to really control himself. Yeah. And then, you know the thing about Melantheo? When he gets to the house, he just goes over and runs over to the suitors. He sits down, I think, next to Eurymachus. So he's just this coward that likes to hang out with bullies to feel strong. Just the most like, I don't know, it's like the lowest of the low. It's like the most bitch-made thing you can do.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00] It's just like, ooh, these guys are, now I'm going to go and you guys can like mock this person while I sit here in safety.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02] It's so funny. Like I say this, you know, like I at least say it over and over again. But the emotional dynamics are so easily recognized. It's not, it is just a modern story.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Like there's like high school stories about like the kid that does that, like that goes, hangs out with the bullies and then from a very safe place starts to make fun of some poor kid. Yeah, there was one thing that I thought was interesting. Eumaeus says, are you sure you want to go in there? And he says, Odysseus says, there is no way to hide a hungry belly. It is insistent. And the curse of hunger is why we sail across relentless seas and plunder other people.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00] Kind of an interesting line there.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02] I know. To which I was like, that just sounds like a big excuse for your plundering. Like I didn't get the sense that this island full of natural resources is making you so hungry that you have to go.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00] Didn't seem like it was running out of food. It's been running out of food because of these suitors maybe. Right. Yeah, then that's where he sees Argos and that's horrible. The little wag of the tail and his ears drop back.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02] His ears drop back. The dogs were the same too. I know. Yeah. Lay neglected without an owner in a pile of dung from mules and cows. So sad.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00] And it's, again, I do think it's like this stagnation of Ithaca is, I think, like the stagnation of the dog lying in dung. It's just like, Ithaca has been in a really, really bad and neglected state. And the suitors are being like kind of infesting it and nobody's doing anything about it.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. The suitors are the dung. And, you know, like Argos has to lay among the dung and the flies. And this is the danger that was there with Telemachus, like that he would be raised among these people. But both Argos and Telemachus are able to still not become the dung.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And not too many people, you know, even someone like Laertes, who's just wasting away out in the woods somewhere. He's not doing anything. He's not rounding anybody up. You know, it's a good question why some of the other Ithacans, like Mentor or whatever, have. But, you know, it's also relatable. Sometimes you just, you don't have it in you to stop the decline. Yeah. And maybe that's the case here. So then Odysseus goes to beg from the suitors.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00] You know, you're right that he's giving all of them this moral test and that's what Athena wants. But Athena stood beside Odysseus and prompted him to go among the suitors, begging scraps to find out which of them were bad or good. Although she had no thought of saving any out of the massacre which was to come. So even where you get that Amphimus, who's the nice one and has always been kind of the nice one, you always get this reminder that he's going to die too, though.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00] So it's like we're testing them, but not for like whether they live or die. Right. I think she wants to get Odysseus' blood up, though, too. Clearly. Yeah. And Antinous, big surprise, doesn't handle a beggar coming with a ton of class. Pig man, you famous idiot. Why did you bring? That's what they call you, Mayas, I guess. Pig man. Why did you bring this man here? Do we not? This is rich, by the way.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00] Do we not already have plenty of homeless people coming here to spoil our feasts? Is it not bad enough that they crowd round and eat your master's wealth? You had to ask this other one as well. I mean, that is unbelievable.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02] They are all such assholes. It's like it's like hard to believe that they don't realize like how rich that is.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00] You hear yourself, Antinous, you know. It's like of all the people to complain that these beggars are eating Telemachus' wealth. Like for him to say that, it's just incredible.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02] You just got to let him do that?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And then he gives his story, Odysseus, to them. And here's another one where like he starts out, he says, I used to be a rich man with a palace. When needy beggars came from anywhere, no matter who they were, I gave them food. My slaves were numberless. My wealth was great. I had the life men say is happiness. But Zeus destroyed it all. He wanted to. He prompted me to travel with some pirates to Egypt. It's like up till pirates to Egypt, there's nothing there that doesn't apply to Odysseus. Totally.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00] You know, like it's funny the way he just is approaching kind of gently his own maybe regret or trying to even understand why he left in the first place.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like it's weird that he would fill so much of his own autobiography and the lies when he doesn't have to. But I think you're right. He's working through some shit.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And you said before he blamed, you know, hunger, the belly. And here he's saying Zeus. He blamed Zeus.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02] He's always catching those.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And here we have Antinous just throws a stool at him and hits him. It's the second time he's been hit because Melanthio also went at him and he had to like stand there and take it. And like both times he's really keeping himself under wraps.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02] And it's just like a good contrast between the way that these guys lose their self-control and the way that Telemachus and Odysseus are exerting their self-control. Everything about them is just like they're just greedy and lazy and lacking in self-control. More so like in these two books, like they're described even more than before.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. They're more decadent and just irredeemable except for Amphinous. But I think also Athena is orchestrating this to some extent too. But she doesn't need to do much to bring that out of them because that's who they are.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02] And by the way, we see Telemachus have a nice moment where he stands up to Antinous. This is like his confidence and his moral judgment is growing by the chapter. For sure.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. But it's a delicate balance too because on the one hand, he wants to show strength and grace in this situation. But on the other hand, he doesn't want to show too much because he doesn't want to give away the plot. And he's playing it from what I can understand kind of perfectly, you know. It's like a spy. Like this part is like a spy novel or something. Yeah, right. Where you're really, it's an infiltration.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02] And whatever Athena is doing is like the Mission Impossible masks, you know, or they peel them off. Right.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00] And it's funny because in those cases, you're sometimes infiltrating foreign territory. But here he's just infiltrating his own house.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. By the way, we're sneezes like an omen. Like it's like the sneeze of death when she gets all giddy. That's the thing.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00] I don't, I've never seen sneezes be taken that way, but maybe they were. But I think the way she's laughing about it, it's almost like, yeah, that settles it. You know, I see her as giddy. It's also not clear why she would immediately want to speak to him. You know, like all she hears is commotion downstairs and maybe one of Odysseus' speeches. But she immediately asks for him to come up.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And then Odysseus basically wants to wait until all of them have gone to sleep.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. One of the things that is said repeatedly here as Odysseus is disguised as a beggar is that a beggar can't have shame. And so Odysseus has to act in this sort of shameless manner. And it just like, it's, you know, consistent with this intrapsychic growth that somebody so proud has been brought down to the point where he has to, in his own home, beg for food and like humble himself.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02] And that seems like one of the most difficult tasks of self-control that you might go through if you were once the great Odysseus. And now you're begging these assholes.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00] To give you your own food. Yeah. To give you your own food. I agree. That's a great way to put it. Like, it is about as humiliating as it can get. But I think humbling is the real word here because he is being brought low. But in a way, I think he feels he might have coming to some degree. Yeah. And he's taking it and kind of owning it. I think he's, you know, he's building himself back up, his character back up.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But there's also this nice note of, you know, like the suitors are the worst example of Xenia that you could possibly have. And so they're treating, as expected, the beggar, the lowest of the low. They're treating him like shit. And you really do get the sense that as great as Odysseus was, he always was kind to the beggar. Yeah.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02] And so in now having to be that role, I imagine there would be some like relief that you like were once kind to the people who you're now you're now experiencing what they must have gone through.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. From all descriptions, like he was a great king when he was on Ithaca. Good to the people. You know, he had some issues on the return home, certainly. But, you know, that might happen after being away 10 years at war. But like before that, he was a great king who did things the right way. And now there's just Eumaeus left to do that and maybe Telemachus after his trip and potentially Penelope. But as a woman, there's nothing much she can do.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00] Or is there stuff she can do? I guess we'll have to see. So, yeah, this book closes out with them just dancing. The suitors just having a dance party. Into the afternoon. They're doing a lot of day drinking and it's a decadency.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like we find out they're fucking the slave girls, you know. Yeah.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. So then, and I think this will be good for the movie. We open book 18 and just a fat, drunk beggar comes in, like another beggar, into the palace. His name is Arneus, but the men call him Iris because he was their messenger. I totally get that. Is Iris a messenger?

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02] My ancient Greek is rusty.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00] So I just think this will be like if they have a good actor playing this guy, it could be pretty funny in the movie. That would be, it would be a fun role for someone.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Someone will gain 60 pounds in order to portray a realistic.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I see it more as they're going to want to ham this up, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It could be like a Will Ferrell kind of thing. I think he actually might be good for this. Although I think he's supposed to be like clearly younger than Odysseus.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02] I like how he's like, you know, we feel sorry for the homeless and for their plight, but this is a homeless guy who really deserves it.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00] This is the kind of beggar who actually is lazy. He just immediately also ripped. That's the other thing. Like everyone's ripping into Odysseus right away. You know, it's like they see this guy and it doesn't matter who they are or where they are in the hierarchy. And I guess it's just like you always try to attack the people who are lower than you. But man. And so then you have the bum fight that you were talking about.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02] The bum fight.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And another kind of delicate balance where Odysseus is obviously not going to get his ass kicked by this drunken buffoon. But then he's also not like he can't go too hard at him either. So he has to like walk a bit of a tightrope there. Yeah.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02] It's like Clark Kent getting in a regular human fight, you know. Can't give it away.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Like I'm sure like, you know, everything comes back to the Odyssey really. Yeah. There's so many things you can point to in stories.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_02] But he does. But, you know, Clark Kent's not often taken off his shirt to expose his like rippling muscles.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00] Although I do feel like that happened once. Like in one of the movies. Like Superman 2 or something where. And then like Lois Lane was like, damn. Yeah. You know, seeing the muscles. Isn't that kind of like I haven't seen those movies in 30, 40 years. That sounds familiar. I have one thing to ask you about. Like so they propose this fight. Antinous puts goat stomachs stuffed with fat and blood on. So says you can just eat with us, whoever wins.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00] And it says they all agreed. The strategist Odysseus deceived them saying, my friends, there is no way a man as old as me worn down by suffering can fight a younger man. My hunger forces bad choices, tempting me to take the beating. But swear a mighty oath that none of you will step up to help Iris out and hit me roughly with fists and make me lose to him. What's the deception there? Just that he's actually worried about losing the fight.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, I think that what it is is that he is doing the thing that you were just saying, where he has to like not be too badass in the fight. This war hero is like champion. And if those other guys start trying to kick his ass, like he's going to have to like kick everybody's ass and then that will absolutely give him away. I see.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, that makes sense. I like that. That's what I'm saying. This could be a very funny scene. And this guy, he's thinking, oh, I'm going to kick this old motherfucker's ass and then I'm going to go eat with the suitors. And then Odysseus takes off his shirt and he starts like shitting himself. Yeah.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02] It's like an old Kung Fu movie where like the villain has to like gulp. Like, how badass the other guy is.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And then Antinous immediately turns on him. Like once he shows fear and cowardice and says he'll take him to someone who will cut his nose off in ears.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02] To King Akitas or however you say it, who I just looked up because I was like, wait, who was there a king of mainland Greece who would cut off your nose and ears and then your genitals and feed them to his dogs? And like, he's just like a mythical boogeyman in this.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00] So this is one like I think is kind of interesting. So after he beats him up and, you know, they welcome him to his table, he goes over to Amphinomus, the nice one. And he says, you seem intelligent. You're well spoken. Take note of what I say of all the creatures that live and breathe and creep on earth. We humans are weakest when the gods bestow on us good fortune and our legs are spry and limber. We think that nothing can ever go wrong.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00] But when the gods bring misery and pain, we have to bear our suffering with calm. Our mood depends on what Zeus sends each day. I once had what most people count as wealth, great riches. I committed many crimes of violence, abuses of my power, abetted by my brother and my father. Again, everything true there up till my brothers and my father, right? So he says, no man should turn away from what is right.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00] Wasting wealth and failing to respect the wife of one who will soon come home, back to his family and homeland very soon. So he's kind of warning him. And then we go to Amphenomus and he starts pacing around the house, troubled at his heart. Yeah. This is, I think, where I started to think about it as, you know, he's being haunted here.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. He's shook. Like what he said, he's like, may the spirits guide you home so you don't meet him when he comes. When he confronts the suitors in this hall, there will be blood.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00] There will be blood. Is that where that title comes from? I don't know. I mean, certainly the book came out. I mean, the movie came out before this translation, but I don't know. Maybe it's in the other translations too. But then we just hear what happens to him too. It's like. I just don't have any hope.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02] Don't you worry your pretty head. He's going to be fucked.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_00] You know, like I love the ironic code. I think it's kind of Greek, kind of that fatalistic pessimism. But like you get this whole buildup, like, oh, the good one is going to start to maybe, you know, think I got to get out of here and he'll be saved, which is he deserves because he wasn't that bad. But nope. Yeah. Telemachus is going to kill him with a spear. There's no justice. Well, that should be interesting to talk about the justice of his death when we get there. If we do. And, you know, it could be a misdirect.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00] Homer is famous for his misdirect. Oh, okay. I believe that.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02] I love then how Athena makes Penelope extra hot.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02] And so desire would open up inside them like a sail. But then what does it mean? And so her son and husband would respect her.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00] I think obviously Telemachus knows Penelope and I think she wants Odysseus to get a good look too. Is here a question that maybe she is in on the game with the recognition?

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Because like Athena is doing something so that Odysseus will feel some way toward her.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00] But wouldn't she want to do that either way? You know, like also make Odysseus pretty excited to see Penelope in all her glory?

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I wasn't even bringing it up as really like as a recognition thing. But like why would they respect her more? You know, unless respect here just means they would be wowed by her beauty.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I wonder what it would say in the other translations for that. But I think also, you know, she has just been this kind of weepy procrastinator about everything that's going on. And I think Telemachus has gotten a little frustrated with her inaction, you know, not making a decision one way or the other. And then maybe Odysseus is also kind of wondering why all these suitors have been here for four years. And, you know, Athena definitely wants, I think she would want him to have his blood

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00] up, not just in anger for, to the suitors, but also in desire for Penelope because this is what he might be in danger of losing if they don't get this done.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So then mysteriously, mysteriously she laughed and told her slave and she tells your enemy, if that's how you say it. Yeah. Who has the fucking balls to tell her, yeah, but you don't want to go down looking like that. All blotchy. And then I love how Penelope's like, hey, you know, I respect you, right? Don't you fucking talk to me like that again. I know you care for me, but do not tell me I should wash myself and put on oil. Like God's destroyed my beauty the day my husband left in hollow ships.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, I took her to be saying not like, don't talk to me, but like my beauty is gone since my husband left. She comes back to that refrain a few times, like to show her kind of loyalty or fidelity.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02] She sounds like an old Italian widow.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I used to be beautiful until my husband.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00] But I don't even think she thinks she's not beautiful. I think that's what she's saying because like my beauty is for my husband, not for these fucks.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I don't know. I mean, she keeps saying it and I don't know if it's part of her ploy to keep saying it, but we do know that Athena does like, you know, do some magic makeover, like Athena, the makeover goddess does some to her.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00] So I sometimes am tempted with something like this, you know, you know, she makes Telemachus walk with even more kind of grace and confidence, or she makes Penelope so beautiful. I'm tempted sometimes to also interpret this more metaphorically. Like in the way that, you know, when the gods give courage to someone on the battlefield, you could look at that as a metaphor for adrenaline and just that feeling of drive and stuff like that.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00] And now I'm not saying to doubt the reality of Athena, but I'm saying sometimes I think, you know, if she feels like I'm going to be like an agent for the first time in a long time here, I'm not just going to be stalling. I'm not just going to be weaving and unweaving and keeping the clock not moving at all. I'm going to be taking a step of action to move this along. And so that energizes her. That brings color to her face.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02] In this case, it brings color out of her face. It makes her whiter.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it makes her glow and like in beam. And I think, you know, I'm tempted with sometimes with something like that to just feel like, yeah, good. She's feeling great. Feel good. Yeah. You know, so I don't know. Are you ever tempted to do that?

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_02] No, absolutely. I mean, because you can even say that he looked taller. You could very easily say that metaphorically by saying he was taller. It works except for that. I think there was probably like people telling this story who just took it to mean that God really did do it. And I think that in some cases it kind of has to be like when she disguises Odysseus, like it has to be some real physical disguise. Although I, you know, but yeah, I think it has to work the way that you say too.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And I don't think like, I think it's maybe more our temptation to say it's one or the other. It can be both, you know, like them working hand in hand. Like maybe they think that's how you do start to look better. You know, it's because of the God. Everything is because of some God. So yeah. Yeah. So then she gives this speech to the suitors.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, sorry. Before that speech. Yeah. She says something to Telemachus that I think is, I want to talk about, which is she says like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, why are you letting them insult people in our house? Like, you know better than this.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02] She's like reaming him for like letting them mock the beggar and let all that should happen. And he's like, oh, believe me, I know good from bad.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00] I can't say though right now why. Just trust me. I cannot even afford to think my own heart's thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's another great case where he has to walk this fine line. He's like, because she's right. She's not right in the global thing, but she's right in the local way. He can totally see her point of view. And I think, again, he handles it kind of perfectly. It's really impressive. Yeah. And then, you know, they both are saying how they want all the suitors dead.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_00] But yeah, then she comes out and says, first of all, everybody, my husband said that when our son's beard has grown, you must get married to any man you choose and leave your house. Those were my husband's words. The time has come. The night when I must marry is at hand. But then she says, another bitter thought oppresses me. It's not right or proper to court a decent woman in this way. A rich man's wife competing for her hand.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_00] They ought to bring fat sheep and cows to feed my family and give fine gifts, not eat what is not theirs and offer nothing back. So it's like this isn't how suiting is supposed to work. You're supposed to be giving me presents, not just eating me out of house and home. Totally. And here's where Odysseus was happy that she was secretly procuring presents and charming them with pretty words while her mind moves elsewhere.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, why would he be happy and why would he be so sure if he still has yet to test her that her mind had actually moved elsewhere, that this wasn't real? Like, that doesn't make sense to me. If you think not only that she doesn't recognize him, but that he doesn't already know that somehow.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, I mean, she's clearly up to something. Like what she's up to, I don't know yet. You know, she might have plans of her own that she's trying to start moving. Because like at this point, like I don't think she feels yet like she's in cahoots. I mean, unless you're right, like all the way where it doesn't feel like she's in cahoots yet, but rather that she's taking some agency here and she's like now like, fuck it, I got to do something.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00] But why does Odysseus, why is he so confident that this is a trick rather than a sincere thing to say the night has come where I must marry?

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think he could tell that she's up to something.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. So he just knows her well enough to know that she's up to something.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02] That's what I, at least what I assume.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Okay. That's fine with me too. Because yeah, I think a husband wouldn't like, you know, when your wife is being sincere and when they're not. So yeah. And then they start just drinking into the night and Odysseus is kind of hanging out there. So then there's this interesting interaction with the slave girls that Odysseus has. He says, slave girls, Odysseus, your master has been long gone. Go back and sit beside the queen and comfort her. Spin yarn or comb the wool.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00] I can provide these men with light. If they decide to stay here till bright dawn, rides on her lovely throne, I will not be defeated. I am tough. And then here Melanthos starts to taunt him. It's just uncalled for, man.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02] He's trying to be nice here. But like, I could also see it from the perspective of some of these slaves. Like, wait, who are you? Like, excuse me?

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00] Like. Yeah, exactly. You're starting to order me around right now. Yeah. I think she is the sister of the Goatheart. Because weren't they both the children of Doleus?

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, I didn't catch that. That would make sense. They both just are nasty little things. Melantho and Melanthias.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00] Melanthias, the son of Doleus, also. Yeah.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_02] And then we find out she's fucking the Eurimachus. Yeah.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. She's a little whore. I think she's going to be played by Mia Goff. Really? Which is great. Yeah. I think that works really well. I really like her, too. Because she's kind of, I could see her being kind of hot, even if she's not sympathetic, you know?

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. This is, I like how Odysseus claps back and calls her a little dog.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02] And says, I'll soon go and tell Telemachus what you've said so he can slice you limb from limb. And that made the women tremble with fear. They thought he was speaking the truth.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Right. Because they're getting scared.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Totally. But then it has this line where, you know, Athena has been, like, turns out, you know, like hardening the hearts of the suitors like God does the Pharaoh.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02] And it says, Athena wanted pain to sink down deep inside Odysseus. You were alluding to this earlier.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02] She made the suitors keep taunting him. Eurymachus was jeering to make the others laugh. And it's like, she's riling him up. And yeah, I want to talk a little bit about, like, why, like, my intuition was that she's riling up righteous indignation. But like, she could just be having fun. I don't know.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00] I think both. Like, I think she wants to get Odysseus' blood up because she loves a good fight. And, you know, it's been a while since he's been in a warrior mindset. And so, like, just get his emotions going. But then also, yeah, it's a righteous thing. And this is kind of who they are anyway. But maybe she's accelerating it a little bit. So when does she start interfering with this?

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I don't know when the first mention is of it. Is it after Melantho does her thing?

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02] That's when it says it, yeah. So on page 420 is when she says that thing that she made the suitors keep taunting him.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And so even before that, you know, he's insulted Melantho. And then Euromachus starts calling him like a dirty hobo and starts insulting him. Right?

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_02] No, Euromachus starts taunting him right after.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00] Okay, I see. Yeah.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, and recalls him with a real insulting thing, calling a man bald. Yeah. That's the worst thing. Took that to heart.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00] He needs a little more Propecia. Yeah. Another footstool. But this time Odysseus ducks out of the way in fear behind him Phenomus, which is kind of interesting.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know what it reminded me of? Goodfellas. When Once a Space gets shot in the foot.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00] He's just trying to do his job. Yeah, he's just trying to observe one. Yeah. This is a couple times Athena will do this where they start getting just a little crazed. You know? It's this like heightened atmosphere of like a frenzied asshole-ness. Yeah. Yeah, and then finally I guess they go home and go to sleep because Telemachus tells them to.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02] And he says like right there like toward the end of this book, he says, perhaps this is insanity. Perhaps you dined too well or else some god is stirring you. Yeah. So you're kind of vibing out that like maybe. Yeah. Maybe some divine intervention is going.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00] Athena might be up to something on her end as well. Well, yeah, and then Amphinomus again. It's not going to save him. But he does kind of figure out a very tactful way of like you can go home with your honor still. The boy is right and let's pour libations and everyone go home. And so they do. And I think that's partly what Penelope's like mission was is to get them out of the house so that they could talk without being heard. Yeah.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02] For some reason I thought they were all spending the night at this house. I think they normally do. But I guess they just come and day drink. Oh, okay.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00] Or at least sometimes they do. And even after Penelope's speech, I think Antenna was like, we'll send people, but we're not going like until you marry us. But then all of this combined with what Telemachus and Amphenomas says, they go home. So good.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It's interesting that Athena is like pretty active in these two books, but never she doesn't reveal herself like she often has in the past to like either one of them. So it's not actually clear to me whether or not they have seen her doing her thing or not.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. The fact that this is kind of rotten, this thing that we're doing. And they deal with it in different ways.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. If there's anything we've learned about humans, you don't need gods really interfering to make you do some shit.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Everything too seriously.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Oppenheimer had some genuinely comedic moments, but is that even true? I don't remember. Yeah.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02] I don't remember any funny vibes, but maybe. But yeah.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that's true. Forget it. It's going to be a rough sit, I think. I need to get myself in the right mindset for it. All right. Next up, books 19 and 20. Like I said, I think book 19 is an all-timer. There's so much interesting stuff to figure out what's going on there. Whatever you believe. It's so fascinating. So join us next time on The Lotus Eaters. The Lotus Eaters.