The Lotus Eaters Episode 3: The Halfway House to Humanity [unlocked]

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00] drop, but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01] Welcome to either The Lotus Eaters Odyssey, a podcast on Homer's Odyssey, or welcome to The Complicated Men, a podcast on Homer's Odyssey. What do you like?

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I kind of like The Complicated Men, but...

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01] I just don't love saying it.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01] I think I like the idea. So that is a reference to Emily Wilson's choice for the opening lines of The Odyssey. What you do for that is something that everybody's gonna like talk about and, you know, carp about shows that. What are some of the other ones?

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00] There was Speak Memory of the Man of Many Ways, Sing, O Goddess, the Story of the Resourceful Man, Man of Twists and Turns. Yeah. The Man, So Various, So Wise. Really what we should go with is Politropon. Yeah. The original.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01] Which I think does mean like many sided, many faces. And in that sense, I think, yeah, complicated does seem a little bit boring, but the other ones maybe take a like an interpretation on what it is.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00] Although Emily Wilson's wokeness might mean that she's actually being disparaging, like, oh, so complicated.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01] You know, people have said that, you know, her Odysseus, you know, underplays how much of a glorious hero he is. And, you know, these two books where we first meet him, it's like, he's constantly crying, but that's just how it is. That's not her translation. Like, it's just more you had a different idea about how Odysseus is presented in the Odyssey.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I'm excited that we finally get to meet him.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, we finally do.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00] It's like, what the fuck? It's the Odyssey, you know?

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01] So, we are going to be doing today books five and six, where we first meet Odysseus on the island of Ogygia. And then he is allowed to sail back to another island, the Phaetian island, where he will need to ask them for a safe passage home.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01] Before we get into the plot, I was kind of wondering what your impressions were of these two books. And then also, like, do you think there's any themes that are coalescing from them?

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, what you said, like, you know, Odysseus is crying and forlorn. And you really get, like, a sense that I just, I guess, never had before reading this, that he's presented as this, like, guy who's just shit on. It's like a very Job kind of description of his life, where he's a lot of, woe is me, woe is my life. Like, I'm going to, fine, if I'm going to die, like, just do it. Just get it over with. The gods have shit on me left and right.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And then the last thing that really stuck out at me was something that was present earlier, which is, it's kind of funny how Zeus takes the fall for everything. Like, he gets blamed for everything. And he's just like, Zeus is like, all right, like, we'll help him out. Like, he's not really doing anything.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, well, this is something he complained about. We talked about it last episode as well, that sometimes they're right to blame him, but he's also right that sometimes they just use him as an excuse for, you know, their own failings.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01] And it's funny because, like, that's Odysseus' perspective, like you said. But from Athena's perspective, no, things are going good. Like, this is part of this plan we learn. This is going according to her plan, Zeus says at the beginning. And then when Poseidon finds out, he's, like, pissed. He's like, oh, my God, this guy, you know, we've been too easy on him.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00] I wanted to ask you that. So the reader wouldn't know at this point why Poseidon is pissed, right?

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Although probably people who originally would hear this know that story, probably, you know, if they haven't heard it before in the same way that you probably do.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00] Right. But it's not, like, revealed yet.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01] No, that's right. It's been revealed that Poseidon has a grudge against him. And no, they might have even said for blinding his son.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00] He should have given his son more than one eye is what I'm saying.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, no, I agree. And, like, I think Odysseus', like, these years of being, like, a sex slave for Calypso have taken their toll just on, like, what do you make of his mindset?

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00] It's so funny because it's, like, tragic. Like, he's obviously depressed. And then they're like, okay, she agrees to let him go. And they have one more night of, like, wonderful lovemaking.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, breakup sex.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00] So I don't know how sad, like, you know, it sounds like he was excited at night and then sad in the morning. You know, like that.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01] But he does, yeah, I mean, he just spends the days weeping. And he's also, again, he has reason for this, but he's also very paranoid. Like, he doesn't trust when the gods are trying to genuinely help him because he feels like a Job-like figure at this point. And he has no real trust in that. There's some confusing things about, like, what role destiny plays, what roles the gods have played that I'd like to talk about.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01] So here's my, I had to lecture on the second half of the Phaeitian adventures. But I came to think of the Phaeitians this way. And then now I'm kind of noticing also that book five on Ogygia with Calypso also fits this general pattern to some degree.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01] There's these two islands, right? And they're both kind of different versions of like an Eden, like a paradise. There's like a celestial version of that with Calypso and Ogygia and like all the nymphs and, you know, the Ambrosia. And there's an earthly kind of paradise. And if we don't get that now with the Phaeitians, we will. A kind of like earthly paradise, right?

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01] Now, like Odysseus doesn't have much interest in the celestial god version of this paradise. You know, he's pretty tactful. But it seems like in spite of the sex at night, he wants to go home and has for maybe not the whole time, but for a while.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01] Now, he's been there for seven years. I think the Phaeitians, though, give him like a glimpse and give us a glimpse into like a genuine alternate reality, one that could easily have happened because Odysseus didn't have to go to war, right? Like he didn't owe anything to Agamemnon and Menelaus. That was a choice that he made that all the kings made, but he could have stayed home, right?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01] And so I think like the Phaeitians represent kind of a world where what if instead of going out to try to make his name and his glory, he had chosen to stay home, stay with his kingdom? Because we haven't seen that. We've seen two examples of kings who did go off to war with Nestor and Menelaus. Nestor is probably best case scenario for this, but Menelaus, it's complicated, as he says. Like he didn't even know if he wanted to leave, if he should have.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01] But Odysseus like feels like he's the worst possible case because like he's Schrodinger's Odysseus. He's neither alive or dead. Like he's like you said in the last episode, which we just put out. He's like an idea, right? And he's a shell of himself. And then, you know, you also remember that Ithaca is doing very poorly now, too, right? And so it's not just Odysseus that has to bear the consequences of that choice. It's Ithaca, too.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01] So I think like what the Phaeacians do is give a glimpse into a society where the king stays home. Everybody stays home. And I found that like a helpful way of kind of understanding like a lot of the weird details of the Phaeacians. Because while it is a paradise like place, it's also there's something a little creepy about it, too.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, yeah. I haven't gotten that yet. Yeah. Like I haven't gotten the sense of creepiness.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01] But yeah, it is kind of interesting that there are these two options that are kind of clearly presented to him. Even Nausicaa is like, I would marry you right now if you would stay. Only if like someone like this would stay on the island. Right. And same with Calypso. And neither of those things. He just wants to get back to Ithaca, which is not a paradise, but it could have been maybe if he had stayed.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It's amazing how much Penelope has a pull on him. You know, I hope she's good to him when he finally makes it home. But he's just like for 10 years weeping. Like he's clearly and this goes back to like the sort of Schrodinger's Odysseus where he has not been able to let go either. Right. It's so interesting how at the beginning, Athena is like, look, everybody's forgotten him. But maybe Ithaca has kind of forgotten him. He has not moved on at all.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Like for 10 years, he's been just dreaming of being home, but not knowing whether anybody even remembers him.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's like what I always feel when you leave your dog at a boarding place. Like they don't know if they're ever going to see us again.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00] You know, I left for one week and I came back and my daughter wasn't even speaking Spanish anymore. I was like, what the hell? I feel like I'm two weeks away from my kids forgetting me.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But yeah, like Zeus. So this is one of the first things where she, yeah, she's complaining that everyone's forgotten him. And Zeus is like, oh, come on. Did you not plan all this yourself so that Odysseus could come home, take revenge upon the suitors? This was all your idea.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00] Is the accusation that the whole thing, like getting trapped on Calypso's Island?

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. This is one of the weird things. I don't know. We do hear that Athena was the original one who got mad. And that's what originally sent Odysseus off course to being home because of that little affair with little Ajax raping Cassandra in Athena's temple. But we don't know like if she had any details. But there's this. Did you not plan all of this yourself from Zeus to say? And then there's the thing Poseidon says, like the gods have changed their mind.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01] Do you remember that when he first sees Odysseus on the ship?

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00] He shook his head and told himself, this is outrageous. So it seems the gods have changed their plans about Odysseus while I was absent. He has almost reached Phaecia, where it is his destiny to flee the rope of pain that binds him now. But I will goad him to more misery till he is sick of it.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. The gods have changed their mind about the situation. It sounds like they had an agreement. Yeah. And now they're changing it. And he wasn't alerted about that. I don't totally get how this works in terms of like who planned what, you know. But he also says like it's your destiny, though, to get home. So he knows that there is this ultimate destiny, Poseidon.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00] The thing that's so interesting to me in a text like this is that we get all the detailed conversations with the gods. So we know what they're thinking in a way that you don't know in the Hebrew Bible, for instance. Like you have no idea really. You get like little hints here and there. But here it's just all laid out. Like we know when humans are wrong to attribute something to them or not. We know what they're doing behind each other's backs.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01] But it's still not like a really easy thing to figure out either just because you can't totally trust them. You get a lot of conflicting reports. Yeah.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, as Odysseus says to Calypso, like, I don't know. You tell me that we're going that I could build a raft. But like this just might be another one of your tricks. And she doesn't disagree. She's like, yeah, you know how this works, man. But no, no, I promise.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So, yeah, we meet him. He's like weeping on the on the shores. He's repeatedly referred to as the unhappiest man alive. I like the kind of mid-level God politics like Calypso being pissed and the sexual politics of it's like, oh, just because I, you know, like when a woman is with a mortal man, you get all pissed. But you guys can fuck all the mortal women that you want.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01] Jealous God.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, right. She's like, I saved him. Like now you're trying to save him and you're like somehow like taking him away from me. But the accusation of like the female gods not being able to fuck the same way is hilarious.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01] He says you bear a grudge whenever any goddess takes a man to sleep with as a lover in her bed. And then she gives a bunch of examples of, you know, that's a double standard. It's funny that they have this like sexual double standard that she's complaining about. And I like also that Hermes is like doesn't really want to do this. He's like like he kind of resents being the errand boy.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And like especially because he had to like swim or whatever. Yeah.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01] And there's nobody to sacrifice anything. It's like, what the fuck am I to do? It's like he's just kind of grumbling the whole time. And he's and he's just like very businesslike with Odysseus and Calypso.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Are we to understand that like if Odysseus were to choose to stay with Calypso, that he would like be kind of immortal?

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00] No, I think not kind of just like actually immortal.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01] Straight up immortal. That's what Calypso at least claims that she wanted. So that's what I mean about like there is a like godly alternative that is being rejected here. But there is also a window into an earthly alternative that could have happened. But yeah, he could stay there forever. But it's so isolated. Like he would just never see anybody, never mind his family. He would just never see anyone, period.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01] I love how catty she is to Penelope.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00] She's like, tell me I'm hotter. Yeah.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01] You know I'm hotter, right? You would stay here with me and be immortal. Though you might still wish to see that wife you always pine for. And anyway, I know my body is better than hers is. I'm taller too. Mortals can never rival the immortals in beauty. And like here Odysseus is being kind of tacked. This is a delicate situation. Yeah. So and he says, I know my modest wife Penelope could never match your beauty. She's a human. You're deathless, ageless. But every day I want to go back home.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00] The way that the humans have to be around the gods is like they're walking on eggshells. So this is one of the reasons why landing on the Phaeacian shore and seeing actual human beings felt like such a relief when I was reading it too. Because it's not just that it's like a paradise or whatever. It's also just that like these are people that I can relate to. These are people who I don't have to like worry that much about their, you know, the godly wrath and what's going on.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01] You know, and often you just get caught up in one of their rivalries.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01] You know, did you want to say anything about him building the boat? I could see you kind of geeking out about that.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00] It was cool. My first thought was like, you know, you're a god though. Can't you like help him out with this?

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01] Does he really need to do this all on his own? But I think he does because like he needs to build himself back up a little bit and like kind of MacGyver himself, a boat is like, I think a good way for him to do it. And then like the trip for the first like 18 days seems great. And I bet that's going to be so beautiful under the stars. Watching the Pleiades. Yeah. But then, yeah, Poseidon.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00] Returning from the Ethiopians. What was he doing there?

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01] Among the Ethiopians?

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00] Why was he fucking with them? And pausing on Mount Salima, Poseidon, master of earthquakes, which I didn't know was a moniker for him, saw the distant raft and raged. He shook him. And that's the part we were talking about earlier.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01] And then he gives this speech. Once, you know, Poseidon makes it like he's going to die now at sea. He says, more pain. How will it end? And then he starts talking about the people who died at Troy. And he says, those Greeks were lucky three and four times over who died upon the plain of Troy to help the sons of Atreus. I wish I had died that same day. The mass of Trojans hurled their bronze tipped spears at me around the corpse of Peleus'

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01] son, which is Achilles. I would have had a funeral and honor from the Greeks. But now I have to die this cruel death. Like, that's a big thing. Like, if you don't get a proper burial, it's like you're going to be forgotten, you know, or at least that's how he thinks. To die like Achilles, he's saying, I wish I had just done that. And then I would be honored. And this is an interesting little passage, first to just get a sense of his state of mind as Schrodinger's Odysseus, like how that seems to him to be the worst possible

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01] fate being neither alive nor dead. But it's also interesting because he's going to meet Achilles in the underworld. Achilles will kind of give the opposite message.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. It just also just reads of survivor's guilt to like everybody that I left dead. And now I'm in like a kind of shell of a man, but I have life. It's almost like rejecting the gift of life because you don't deserve it.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But I, I don't think he is feels guilty though, but maybe that's an interesting way to look at it. But like, I think like just because he's in such a self pity, woe is me mode. Like, I think he genuinely is jealous of them. They should have death guilt is basically what he's saying. So yeah, he gets some help from Eno. I like the kind of mid tier gods that we hear about. The white goddess.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00] This, uh, keep the world going round, you know, like they can't just be an Olympus all day long. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01] Um, and yeah, he's very paranoid, you know, just cause you're paranoid. It doesn't mean that somebody isn't really out to get you because he is paranoid, but also sometimes they are out to get him, but not in the case of Eno. And Eno is able to tell him how to get to shore.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And Athena steps in and like dies down the winds. Yeah. It's interesting.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01] When she chooses to intervene and when she doesn't is definitely an interesting thing. Like sometimes she really does allow him to fend for himself. Yeah. And finally he hits land and there's a few of these kind of famous Homeric similes. Uh, here's an example of that. Uh, as when a father lies sick and weak for many days, tormented by some cruel spirit to last the gods restore him back to life. His children feel great joy.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01] Like Odysseus felt the same joy when he saw land. So it's like, and you can relate to this all too well. Yeah. Like when you're really sick and then when you finally get better, how you feel like that first couple of days, it's just like, yeah.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00] You really can feel the relief the way that this is told.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Uh, and then when he's concealed in the leaves naked, as when a man who lives out on a lonely farm that has no neighbors buries a glowing torch inside black embers to save the seed of the fire and keep a source. So Odysseus was concealed in the leaves. So he's like that little ember that you can come back to and start the fire again. Like they're really good. These things. Yeah.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00] I just love that imagery too. Just like, and Athena lets sleep come over him. And it's like for the first time he sleeps. Yeah. Asleep of like freedom, you know? Yeah. It doesn't even matter what happens next. I mean, it does, but, but you know what I mean? Like he's touched land.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. He's not sick anymore. Like in this liminal kind of transition world between being a God and being a man. Like, no, he's an earthly guy with like human parents, human grandparents. Right.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00] I love how then book six starts just right down to like normal human stuff. Like somebody has to do their laundry.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And it's, but it's, you know, it's the princess, the lovely Nausicaa.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It is fairy tale-y. It's very fairy tale. But it really feels like the opening of a Disney, like princess, you know? And then you go right into like the, she has to get dressed.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01] I love the thing with her dad, like the delicate little conversation they have.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00] It is very much a little mermaid. Do you remember the little mermaid? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01] Exactly. And I think that's exactly like a good description of the archetype that Nausicaa represents. Like the little girl in a small town that dreams of like this big wide world. Yeah. That she would like to know, but really is kind of trapped on her own island. So yeah, I really like the exchange with the father and the father getting that Nausicaa is thinking about marrying and, but doesn't want to say it.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Athena does another one of her like, I'm going to be your friend, but it's a dream, but I'm going to come into your dream. Yeah. And tell you stuff. Yeah. And call you lazy. Yeah. It's great. The setup is like, she goes to the dream and says like, hey, you got to do your laundry tomorrow. This is all so that she'll find Odysseus. It's a nice little setup.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00] They're going to all these machinations. Like, isn't there like a more straightforward way to get it? But it's like, they're really like a cat playing with the mouse, these gods, the way that they're doing this.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01] And I think that they, they will help the hero if they think the hero is worth it. Like that they're doing their part. And if they're not, then, you know, like they'll hang back. So I think like part of their job is to build the character of the humans in the ways that, you know, they want.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00] That's interesting. Is that like an explicit thing about the guy? Like I always thought of them as being capricious and kind of cruel in their way. But like, is there a sense that they're trying to improve?

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01] So, I mean, that's like a good question to keep in mind as we get into the book and we'll see the things Athena does and doesn't do for Odysseus. But there is a couple of times where that exact question is like made explicit. Yeah.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Because like, I think going into it, I would be just thinking, well, his character does improve, but that's because he's had to put up with this shit. Like in the same way that your character might improve having to put up with anything.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01] But I think like he's broken down on Calypso's Island. He's not like, oh, this has turned me into a lean, ascetic, like warrior. No, he's just like sobbing and crying and like hand shy of anyone like offering to help him that he thinks might actually be trying to do. And yet another cock tease of being able to go home. And instead he has to suffer for years and years. Because I do think the gods do this. They have these projects.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01] Like I think Odysseus is a pet project to some degree of Athena's. But then also they kind of forget about them because as we said, like they're immortal. I love the scene with Nausicaa and the girls because this is where it turns from Disney movie to like a porn scene that's a parody of a Disney movie. It says the girls brought out the laundry from the cart and brought it to the washing pools and trotted competing with each other.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01] So they're just all in the, you know, splashing each other and bathing and rubbing themselves with olive oil. And then it says, and then when they were gone, they spread the clothes along the shore. They bathed and rubbed themselves with olive oil. And then they sat at the river bank and ate and waited for the sun to dry the clothes. So you kind of think, yeah, it's like, good Lord.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00] As I was reading this, I was like, oh, God, please don't tell me that they were like 14.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01] I think of her as 18.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00] I like how they play ball like they know ball. Like they took off their headscarves to play ball.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, they're ball knowers. But Nausicaa is the prettiest. So it's an awkward situation for Odysseus. And I think he handles this well.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, his choosing not to touch her was a great, great choice.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And the way he describes that. Yeah. I think Nausicaa has like a Dorothy quality to her. Like, you know, Wizard of Oz. Because she does kind of see this wide world, you know, somewhere over the rainbow. But it is inaccessible to her.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00] Right. So the Phaeacians, they're not thought to be a real group of people.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00] But it says they used to live in Hyperia, but then they moved over to this island. Scaria, I think. Scaria. Scaria.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, Scaria. And so they are kind of isolated because it's far away. Yeah. And they're well known for transporting people, places.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00] They're seafaring. Yeah.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01] They have like magical ships that can get people everywhere like really fast, but they always come back.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00] Interesting. You know, I was trying to see if there was anything like the Phoenicians would have been a well-known seafaring people at the time.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01] But they're mentioned later in the book. The Phoenicians are actually? Yeah, the Phoenicians. Oh. Yeah.

[00:26:05] Yeah.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01] So it's another one of those mentor-mentees things. It's just hopeless to try to keep track of all this. And Odysseus is naked. He has to cover his- His man parts. Just as a mountain lion trusts its strength and beaten by the rain and wind, its eyes burn bright as it attacks the cows or sheep or wild deer and hunger drives on to try the sturdy pens of sheep.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01] So need-impelled Odysseus to come upon the girls with pretty hair, though he was naked. Like these similes are good.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Like I was trying to figure out what that means. Like I understand it at least to be, he's just so drawn by other actual human beings at this point. Yeah. Like despite being naked and the impropriety of the situation, like these are young girls potentially naked themselves.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00] He can't help himself, but like he needs to reach out to them.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. He's like starving to death. So he has to do something that, you know, it's like a last gasp effort, you know, because this is a connection to humanity. It's a little bit off, you know, at least as I read them, but it's way closer to the human and to his like home and what he recognizes than Calypso's Island. And so like, yeah, it's crazy to go up to 18 year old girls naked, like just this like

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01] savage, but like he has no other choice.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00] Right. There is something specific about what the sense of relief I think is with other human beings. And it strikes me that it really is something like the psychology of other human beings is kind of predictable if you're a human being. And so he understands the rules for how he should talk to them and like what he should do in a way that like he hasn't even worked those muscles before because you just can't relate to immortal gods in that same way. You have no frame of reference really to understand, but this is like a human society, a normal set of human.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Which is what allows him, even though he's a shell of himself right now, it's like riding a bike for him. Like he does kind of know what to say.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00] He goes back into his king. Yeah. He's a king.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01] Like he knows how to deal with it. He knows how to like be in like the most delicate situation imaginable and get them to still, even though the situation is totally inappropriate. So yeah, like he knows as much as anyone how inappropriate he is, but like the lion, like this is it. And it's because it's like the earth. I think you're right. That's a good way of thinking of it, that this is something that is like riding a bike

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01] for him and it's not as unpredictable and random or like malevolent as the God realm. But also I think his connection to humanity, like earthly humanity is more visceral. Like, and so it's like, it's primal his need to get there as well.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I'm just going to read a little bit of it because I found this passage to be so nice. So when he decides that the girl might be alarmed at being touched, he decides to speak to her without touching her. His words were calculated flattery. My lady, please, are you divine or human? If you are some great goddess from the sky, you look like Zeus's daughter, Artemis. You're as tall and beautiful as she. But if you live on earth and are human, your mother and your father must be lucky. Your brothers also lucky three times over. Their hearts must be delighted seeing you. They're flourishing new sprout. Maybe not.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00] He's laying it on low.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Oh, yes, yes.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00] And that man, the flourishing new sprout, the dancer's leader. And that man will be luckiest by far who takes you home with dowry as his bride. And I feel like he's been able to spot which one of these is like the royal one, you know? Yeah. Like he's addressing her and he's like letting that kingliness kick in.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01] Royalty recognize royalty, you know? So in this like opening speech to her, he concludes that with this passage. So may the gods grant all your heart's desires, a home, a husband, somebody like-minded. For nothing could be better than when two live in one house, their minds in harmony, husband and wife. Their enemies are jealous, their friends delighted, and they have great honor.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00] That was beautiful. Like that's just a beautiful way of saying it, you know?

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01] My brother just got married and they wanted to do a reading during the ceremony. His wife really likes Greek mythology. So something from that. And I offered this. And so that was the reading is that. Oh, that's awesome. You know, did I tell you I officiated that, by the way? No. Yeah.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00] What the hell? No. Yeah. I'm like a reverend. I did that once for a grad student of mine and he got divorced a year later. Oh, shit.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01] So both of us, both very bad wizards, like can marry people. Reverend, reverend wizards.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00] You did it with United Church, that same thing? I think so. I remember it was a few years ago, but whatever was the most obvious online one.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So I think like you were saying, he goes hard for Penelope. Like I think this is like his description of why. Like somebody like-minded, their minds in harmony.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00] And then the white-armed Nausicaa replies, well, stranger, you seem a brave and clever man. You know that Zeus apportions happiness to people, to good and bad, each one as he decides. Your troubles come from him and you must bear them. But since you have arrived here in our land, you will not lack for clothes or anything a person needs in times of desperation. Another Xenia. Yep. I will show you the town. The people here are called Phaecians. And I am the daughter of the great king, Alcinnis. I sometimes say Alcinnis. It's like Kareem's original name.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00] Lou Alcinnis. On whom depends the strength and power of our people.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So I think you get a little sense of the Phaecians from what she says. So all the other girls, her friends, are like, they're just kind of giggling and scared and they're kind of running away. And then she says, why are you running from this man? Do you believe he is an enemy? No living person ever born could come to our Phaecia with a hostile mind since we are much beloved by the gods. Our island is a remote, washed round by sea. We have no human contact.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01] This is what I mean where it's not quite to humanity yet. We have no human contact. But this man is lost. Poor thing. We must look after him. All foreigners and beggars come from Zeus. Any act of kindness is a blessing. So you really get a sense of where they are from this. And then, okay, so there's one other passage to this effect where she says, I hope I get a man like this as a husband. A man that lives here and would like to stay.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01] You know, that's not normal that, like, usually the queens will go off and live on the island of the king. But that's clearly not an option. That's why I think the Little Mermaid is the perfect example. It's like, ultimately, she's supposed to stay under the sea.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And it is, like, kind of cool that whatever young 18-year-old Nausicaa is, like, also so eloquent. Yes. And, like, she kicks in, like, her hospitality.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01] The good breeding shows. Exactly.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01] So one thing that's kind of interesting about her instructions. Well, first of all, you get a sense of, like, the guys in town.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Gotta be salty.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01] Who's this motherfucker? You know, like, you know, the new kid from New York comes to the small town. Like, and now the prettiest girl in school is like, and they're like, who's this motherfucker? Kick his ass. Trying to get at her for years. Yeah. What she says to him is, yes, my father, he's the king, the great glorious king. Walk right by him. Go to my mom, Arete. And if you can get her on your side, then you're good. That was fascinating to me. Yeah. Go straight to her.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00] And what does she say? Like, hug her legs?

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. She says, my father has a throne next to hers. He sits and sips his wine, just like I God. But pass him by. Embrace my mother's knees to supplicate. If you do this, you quickly will reach your home, however far it is in happiness. If she's good to you and looks upon you kindly in her heart, you can be sure about getting to your house, back to your family and native land. I don't know what to make of that. Like, it's the implication is like she really runs things, you know? Yeah. Right.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01] She's the guy behind the guy. The matriarch.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00] Yet another maybe uncanny. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. This place is the halfway house to humanity. You know?

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01] That's a great way of describing it. I also think it's like a good example of the way they all meet each other and the way they kind of interbreed and travel. Like, if you don't do that, this is what you get. But if you do do that, if you do like venture out in search of wealth and adventure and glory, like you can get fucked too. You can get killed or you can get in this like purgatory between death and life and gods

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01] and mortals. So be careful out there.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. The human condition. We didn't talk about this earlier, but it's like at the beginning, Zeus is like, okay, and when I bring him back, like I'm going to give him all this treasure, like even more than he would have had coming straight back from Troy.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's like, I'll make it up to him. But it's like, they don't get that the most precious thing is actually getting to live your life. Yeah. It's just like Joe, when he's like, oh, don't worry, I'll give him double. Like, even though his kids are dead. Totally. Right. I think, right. It's because they don't understand like opportunity costs for like time, you know? Right.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00] And so this ends with like, there's a sanctuary to Athena there on that island. Yeah. And Odysseus goes and he prays to her. Like, this is just random. But I was thinking to myself, like, yeah, how much of the Greek, like how much of them all knew of the same gods? And like, could you just count on and you land in an island and they're going to have like a temple to Athena?

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01] Well, so the next two books are just him on Phoecian Island trying to negotiate a deal for him to get home. But then after that, he's going to tell about his adventures. And, you know, one of the most famous ones is him going to the Cyclops Island.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01] And one of the reasons he wants to go there is because he's heard they don't like follow the rules like everybody else. And he's so curious about that. And specifically, they don't follow the Zinnia rules he's heard. And so he wants to go test that out.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00] This is a flashback story?

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So the books 9 through 12 are a flashback like previously in Odysseus's life, starting from the end of the Trojan War and going to where we meet him in book 5. Those four books are the stories. And it's wild. That's where he goes to the Land of the Dead, the Cyclops, the Sirens, all the shit that you've heard of pretty much takes place in those books. Cool. Cool. Excited. Yeah. All right. Any final thoughts on this episode?

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00] No. Like I said, it was too short. I'm eager to read more. And now I'm fascinated by the Phaeacians. Yeah. Not like I want to...

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01] You can definitely just read it and not like pay any attention to like the little details that are kind of off about them.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's cool.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Maybe the last thing is when he prays to Athena, she says, Athena heard him but did not yet appear to him, respecting her own uncle. And his fury against Odysseus till he reached home. It's like, yes, sometimes you respect him. Yeah.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01] And it's like politics. It is like, okay, like we can piss him off but not too much. And sometimes my interpretation of fate is that it is just this very like tenuous compromise among all the different competing interests of the gods. And it gives them some kind of way of negotiating that, getting past their own, you know.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00] That's what you... Like I think you even started our whole discussion of, you know, episode one, talking about what is this relationship between fate and the will of the gods. Yeah. And like that's just to me what's like the central puzzle in trying to understand what's going on. And like I'm very curious. I know it's not the point of the book but it's just like are they saying fate as just whatever I do must have been fate? But obviously not, right? Sometimes because they're respecting some that, you know.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Like Poseidon says where it's his destiny to get shipped back to Ithaca if he gets to the Phaeacians. And so that he seems to accept. But then he's also pissed that he's here at all. So maybe he wanted him to have to stay longer or maybe he thought I could get away with this. If they just forget about him a little bit more then I'll win. I don't know. So yeah.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01] There's one point in the Iliad where Zeus actually goes to like a scale, like some cosmic scale where fates are supposed to be decided and gets information. So a little minority report like. And now he's like, all right, I guess we got to do this, you know. But that's the only time they really literalize this stuff. Usually it's just people making illusions and you have to put together what is real about that, what isn't, what is metaphorical.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01] At some point we should talk about like more metaphorical readings of the gods.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean the end of the whole story. Like you can't help but think of obviously we did a whole episode on the hero's journey and this is like the hero's journey quintessentially. But it's like even when we were talking about Odysseus being broken down, it's like this is the kind of thing that is just like a common way of describing your own psychological journey. Like you have to be broken down in order to grow. The shipwreck metaphor where, you know.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it's not clear that you had to be broken down maybe as much as Odysseus was. But maybe he did in order to truly get home. You know, like that's a really key question I think.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00] And what is home, Tamler?

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01] What is home? This is, you know, like a huge obvious inspiration on Twin Peaks The Return which of course ends in Odessa.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00] Oh. Odessa, Texas. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about Odessa being the Odyssey. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And he's taking Laura home.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So, yeah. Spoiler alert. It's funny how they just don't care about spoilers in this text. It's just like that concept doesn't exist. And we could obsess about the details of the metaphysics of that. But you don't get the sense that they obsess about the details just like what the practical consequences are for them. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And like you said about the spoilers, like everybody knows the story by the time they hear it. I think that's right. Yeah.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01] All right. Well, that'll do it for books five and six. Next two books describe the remainder of his time or almost all the remainder of his time with the Phaeacians. So, join us next time on either The Complicated Men or The Zeniators. I'll see you next time.

[00:41:07] Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.