The Lotus Eaters Episode 10: Like-Minded [unlocked]

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of the Lotus Eaters at once, rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to join us.

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[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01] Welcome to another episode of The Lotus Eaters.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00] The Lotus Eaters.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01] So we are right now at Book 19, and normally we would do Book 19 and 20, but there is so much going on in Book 19 that we have decided to devote an entire episode to this book. Fascinating on like 10 different levels. This is where Odysseus and Penelope meet. And Penelope interviews Odysseus.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01] She tells about her dream. She sets up a contest that will be, spoiler alert, relevant in the battle to come. And Eurycleia washes Odysseus' feet, among other things. There's so much going on that I think this definitely warrants its own episode. Yeah, yeah. I read it and I agreed.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01] So, themes of the episode, there's obviously a big question that I want to talk about, but themes that involve that or don't involve that you want to highlight as we go forward?

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, there was a couple that stood out. I mean, there's a lot, but there's a couple that I wanted to explicitly mention. One is Penelope and Odysseus are very similar in character. Like they're like little mirror images of themselves in terms of their cunning nature, their intelligence and their scheming and all that. And you really see when it's juxtaposed like this, you really actually see it, which is nice. Penelope's awesome, like you said.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. She is awesome. And yeah, they don't say things without calculating what the impact of this will be, what they're very instrumental in some sense with speech. Yep. And like good with deception.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Yeah. The other thing that was just like kind of a, I don't even know if it's a theme other than a cool sort of like thing that I thought about given the events and that is Odysseus's scar being the thing that has continuity across all of his identities.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00] Like there's this sense that I got when he tells that childhood story that like, it's a mark of who he is, what his character is. You know, he, he was the one to attack the boar that was about to attack them. He's like, has this bravery that I assume was in his childhood or in his teen years.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00] And he has been so many different people throughout his life and in the events of this book that the recognition through that scar was just like, I don't know, something cool about identity over time, something cool about his character or something.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's like the one thread that ties him together from when he was born to where he is now disguised as a beggar trying to recapture his own home. And I think that's a nice way to think about that. That whole story is kind of interesting. We've, we learn in that story, like how he got his name. Yeah. His grandfather named him that because like, he's like, a lot of people don't like me and I don't like them.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, so we'll name him Odysseus.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_00] So funny. Like what is, so what does Odysseus mean then? Because now it just means Odyssey.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Now it just means the Odyssey. Uh, yeah. You know, I guess I had kind of assumed like you're going to have to like run away from people.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00] Wait, you know, there might be a common root to the word for hate in Spanish, which is odio, O-D-I-O.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00] And so it might be that that comes from all the way back there. Like I hate you, you hate me. Let's name him Odysseus.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. I just like Googling it, anger man. So I could be like hate man or son of pain. Huh? Yeah. It's so funny because now it just means an odyssey, like a quest, but yes, that's not what it meant to them. Obviously. It means to hate or to be angry at.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, so yeah, it is like odious. Odious. Odious. Odious. That's so funny. I feel like I should have known that. Yeah. Can you imagine someone names his kid Hater and then just like years later, Hater means like going on a journey.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's kind of best case scenario if you're going to name your kid Hater probably. It's like, oh no, he's a great traveler. Yeah, that's good. I would say in addition to, you know, like I, what I'm about to launch into, which is that Penelope has recognized Odysseus. Separate from that, there is something very beautiful, as you said, about their like-mindedness. And, you know, you don't see this that often in these ancient stories. Yeah.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01] Like two real equals. Like these are peers. This is a good marriage that got interrupted for 20 years for various reasons leading to this situation. And yet through all of that, they are right for each other, you know? Yeah. And, you know, there's this line from earlier back in book six when he, Odysseus is washed

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01] up on the Phoecian Island and Nausicaa has found him. And he says to her, so may the God grant all your heart's desires, a home, a husband, somebody like-minded for nothing can be better than when two live in one house, their minds in harmony, husband and wife, their enemies are jealous, their friends delighted, and they have great honor. Which I believe I mentioned

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01] back at the, when we did that is my brother just got married and they had that reading at the wedding. But I think this was foreshadowing what's to come with Penelope and Odysseus. Like that's what he had, but they don't live in one house yet, you know? Their minds are in harmony, but they need to get back to where two live in one house and their enemies are jealous.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It does seem weird that like a story this old has such like equals in a partnership and it does seem almost like just the prototype of husband and wife.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, totally. And, you know, it's weird, like this story and sorry to all the people in the Manosphere out there that are going to get pissed about this, but like the women are strong, you know, like Helen and Menelaus. Helen holds her own against Menelaus, that's for sure. In the Odyssey, you get Arte, who's clearly like the one with all the power in the Phoecian Island and it's Alcinous who has to kind of pretend that he's still the boss. But for some reason, Arte is the

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01] one that you go to if you really need to get something done. And, you know, of course, Athena, Circe, Calypso, like women are just kind of strong in this story, but, you know, more than the Iliad, more than a lot of ancient texts. And that's just kind of an interesting fact.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that's totally true. When you list them all out like that, it's like, oh yeah, this is like a female empowerment. It is. You know, people are going to think it's like

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01] the Emily Wilson translation or whatever. This is all the translations like, and the actual text. There's some basic facts about the story. There's just, yeah. Okay. So let me get, and I don't want to make too big a deal out of this, but I do feel like if you want to understand what's going on in this scene, there's a real question, which I brought up last time as to whether Penelope has recognized him or not. And I just want

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_01] to put out exactly what I think is going on. And so what I would ask people to do is just consider reading or rereading book 19 with this lens, just a few premises about Penelope's mindset, Odysseus's mindset. And then if you take these premises, you take the fact that she has recognized him as, you know, what's happened. I think a lot of the events of book 19 make more sense.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01] So first for background, and none of this is controversial. We talked about it all in last episode. We know that Penelope got in kind of a weirdly good mood at the end of book 17, after she heard Odysseus downstairs, not necessarily knowing she's Odysseus. And this happens after that prophet murderer that Telemachus picked up, told her that Odysseus is on the island. He like swore

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01] that Odysseus was on the island. So then she asked to speak to the beggar, which she is known to do. But the beggar, Odysseus says he wants to wait until people go to sleep because the suitors have been mean to him, which if you think about it is a weird thing for a beggar to say to a queen, oh no, let's wait until much later for me to talk to you. Right. Then in book 18, she announces to the

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01] suitors that she's ready to marry, but they're doing it all wrong. They're supposed to give her gifts, not eat all the food. And so get out and bring her some gifts, which they agree to, although they don't agree to get out. Meanwhile, Odysseus, who hears her say that he's there, is happy, right? We talked about that. It's happy to hear her announce that she's ready to pick one of

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01] the suitors to marry. And Telemachus manages to get them out of the palace. And that brings us to book 19, right? So there's a little scheming that we'll talk about between Odysseus, Telemachus, and Athena about where to put the weapons. And then Penelope goes downstairs to where the suitors were to talk to the beggar. So here are the premises. Penelope has already recognized him. She's not 100%

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01] sure, maybe, but she's close. And Odysseus knows this. What does Penelope want to get out of the conversation that occupies like most of book 19? Number one, she wants to confirm for certain that this is Odysseus without letting anyone else in the house in on the deal, right? And we know that Melantho and other slave girls too are banging the suitors, right? And they've betrayed her already

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01] about the weaving, unweaving trick. So she knows that if this is Odysseus, she has to make sure and communicate with him without any of the prying ears knowing about it, right? That's number one. Number two, she wants to explain her situation. But again, this has to be done kind of in code to Odysseus without the slave girls understanding like what's going on. So she needs to explain to him,

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01] I think she feels obligated to. Why are the suitors here? Why hasn't she sent them away? How does she feel about him returning? And I think she wants to ask some like coded questions of her own to Odysseus. Number three, she wants to help Odysseus in whatever scheme he's dreaming up to kill the suitors and kind of collaborate with him on what the best way of doing that is.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01] And to see, you know, if that's really what he intends to do. And then finally, the last thing I think, I think she's encouraging him to do this, right? Like stop stalling. Let's do this. It's been 20 fucking years and it's time to return to our actual home, right? So that's what I think she wants to get out of this. And then Odysseus for his part is letting her mostly run the show. He does want to prove to

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01] her that he's Odysseus. And I think he knows that she thinks that, but he's willing to submit to further confirmation tests. And he lets her set up the bow contest as the inciting event for the massacre to come. I think he's also trying to justify in coded language why he's been away so long and why he's waiting right now. So like, that's the lens, right? I think they're all plausible

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01] assumptions, at least to test out as you read this. Odysseus and Penelope, as we've been talking about already, they're like-minded, they're schemers. They spend two of the most iconic schemes, like in scheme history, Penelope's loom and Odysseus with the Cyclops are iconic schemes. She's not an idiot. She's not a dupe. If she recognized him, I think she would want to do all

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01] those things. So if you read with that lens, I think book 19 makes much more sense. There's still a couple of loose ends for sure, but it makes like a lot more sense than thinking she hasn't recognized him. Because I think if you think that, you don't know why anyone is doing anything. Or if that's too strong, it's just much harder to make sense of, right? The test of the purple cloak, Eurycleia washing his feet, Penelope telling the stranger the dream, the dream itself, Penelope just

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01] deciding to do the bow contest the next day. It makes so much more sense with that reading. And I would finally say, I do think this is the most plausible reading, but I also think it's the most compelling way to read this. It's the most fun and interesting way. And the coded language, the intrigue, some passive aggressive barbs at each other after all this time, like this is a real marriage of the mind. That's what this is. If you think that she's recognized him and not just

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01] talking to what she thinks is an ordinary beggar. So that's it. Good. And we can now go with an objective eye through the rest of it.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00] So, you know, I came into this not being sure. I'm still not sure. Like, I don't feel strongly about either way. Like, I think you make compelling arguments for why that's a good reading. I did just have like a couple of questions for you though, because is it then like when she's like mourning for her husband and crying and like refusing to believe that he's ever coming back? Is it then your belief that all that's pretense?

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01] You mean when she says that to him?

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Like she has like some, you know, toward the end, she's just like crying in bed, you know, she increased her, these words increased her grief. I know he's not coming back. I'll never welcome him home.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01] You know, like I think there's two ways to understand that if I'm right. Number one, again, there are people listening. She knows that. And so this has to seem like she hasn't recognized him. Remember in book 17, she was pretty giddy. She was like, oh, he is coming back. Like that was the meaning of the sneeze, right? She was like, oh, Telemachus's sneeze confirms it. He's definitely back. And she laughed for the first time, maybe only time in the whole text.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01] So like, it's not that she actually is that pessimistic. I think she is trying to be that pessimistic for prying ears, but also to be like, I don't know if you have this in you. Why would I think you're going to do this? You're dressed as a beggar. It's been 20 years. Like, I think she's also kind of motivating him, encouraging him to actually do it when she gets pessimistic. And, you know, when she keeps saying to Odysseus, I'm going to set this thing tomorrow. He always

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01] like is excited. He's never upset that she's planning to marry like the next day. He is excited about that. And you never get the sense, I think from Odysseus that he really thinks she has

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00] any intention of doing that. Yeah. I think he's definitely hatching a plan to like, at least make it not happen. So is it the slave girls that she thinks are listening? Because it doesn't ever say

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01] explicitly that people are listening, right? No, but Melantho has been there clearly because right before she's like just launches into another one of her diss tracks of Odysseus and, you know, first Odysseus gets mad at her and then Penelope gets mad at her. And like I said, it was the slave girls that betrayed her about the loom. So she clearly knows they're spying on her.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So she's just being wary because the conversations between them wouldn't make sense if they were assuming privacy. Like it would just be like, why not just say it?

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, a hundred percent. Like that's one of the premises is that she can't let anybody around

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00] the palace know about this. I like I'm torn because part of me wants to think there's not an answer because you're right. Like there's lots of good reason to think that they know, but there's also just this explicit, you know, the surface level, which may be a deception on their part, but it's also, I think, understandably like the, that the way, at least that I read it naive to everything was that she's really suspicious. This might be Odysseus, but she's not letting herself

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00] be convinced. And I don't think that takes away from anything like any of the cunningness and you like, it actually, for me, it adds like a cool layer of like, they're doing this thing where she's like, I kind of am sure this is Odysseus, but I'm not, I'm not going to come out and say it. Like that seems like a fine, like a emotionally good reading to me because one of the things that like, I feel in your reading, it takes away from her grief. If she's convinced that this is Odysseus,

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00] then like her being like super grieving about it all, that being pretense. Like I kind of like the thought that she's being so defensively pessimistic. And maybe I was thinking Athena did disguise him well and she didn't recognize him, but there is something on Argos like quality where there's some part of her that deeply knows. And I guess people, you know, people have been talking about this as I've found out today for centuries. So like, you know, on one reading, there's some

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00] like deep level at which she knows or some unconscious level or, or intuitive level, but she's not willing to just say like, Oh shit, Odysseus, let me whisk you away to a private room and be like, Oh my God, I'm so glad you're back. Because like, she could do that.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01] I actually don't think she could. Like, I think that would betray it. And like, I'm not saying that your other reading is implausible, but I think that's implausible. Like there, there's no whisking beggars away to private rooms like that are insulated from hearing. Like why would she do that? That would raise alarm bells. And it is very important that the suitors don't know that this is going to happen. They need to be surprised because there's a hundred and like 10 of them or however

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01] many hundred and fourteen. I guess what I want to say in response to what you said at the beginning, I think she still has a pessimism. I don't think she thinks this is necessarily going to work. I don't think she thinks that like he necessarily can actually get this done or that he necessarily even wants to. Like, I think she's recognized him, but I don't think she knows that this whole plan is going to work. So when she's grieving, like, I think part of her really does think this is it.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01] Like it's all going to end. And I think she's also like, if it is this huge failure, like maybe I should have gone off with one of the suitors, you know, she has been left for 20 years. So I think the dream shows she has a little ambivalence about him coming back at all. And so when she's being really pessimistic, it really is like, I don't know if this is going to happen,

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01] but also like, okay, if you're going to do this, do this because it's been a long time.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00] So her grieving is not, I don't think he's ever coming back. It's that he's back, but it might not work like that. Yeah. Or her pessimism.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01] Partly. And then partly, I think it's also encouragement for him. Like we need action, not words right now.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And then do you think that when, what's the slave woman's name, the old lady?

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, Eurycleia.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00] Eurycleia. When she recognizes him and says it and he grabs her by the throat and it says that Penelope didn't look back and that Athena turned her mind aside, like what's going on there?

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, it's a little weird. She says, I want to wash your feet. And he says, I don't want anyone to wash it except the one woman who would recognize this scar I have, if he was thinking of that. And he might've been right. So my first thought going into this was, oh, this is for the final test. Like, you know, all these tests that she's given him up until this point. But by the way, that's another thing

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01] I love about this is the tests. Like she's also a huge tester, you know? And she gave him the test

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00] of like, what was he wearing? I love how, by the way, he's like, I don't know, it was 20 years ago, but maybe a brooch with this like specific figure. Well, that's one of the things that's very hard to

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01] explain. Like, why would she expect this beggar to remember that if she doesn't think that's Odysseus? But okay. So she's done that, but this is the one thing for sure to separate them. Like this would have worked perfectly if Eurycleia didn't just, you know, like recognize it right away and then almost betray it. Now it makes sense that Odysseus wouldn't want that, you know, same prying ear as

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01] problem. And the way she describes it is kind of interesting. She says Penelope didn't dare to look.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00] Is that right? It says, but Penelope did not look back. She could not meet her eyes because Athena

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01] had turned her mind aside. I think maybe Athena's not in on this, by the way, which is another cool thing. I really, like when I get really romantic about this, I think Penelope and Odysseus also have to fool Athena because Athena does not like when people recognize each other and she's not like the first person to do that. She's not in on it. She's like some sort of. No, totally. She absolutely does. I think. And I think you saw that in book 13 when they meet each other and they have this little

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01] recognition test of their own where she's disguised as a shepherd. He's the man from Crete. Like you can't let Athena think you've discovered something before she has or without her like planning for it. So when I get really romantic, I think, oh, you know, that also explains like why they have to be very careful when they talk is even Athena can't know that Penelope has recognized

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00] him. But that I don't know. Definitely. I think in chapter 13, she explicitly says you can't let anybody know, not even your wife. So yeah, Athena's plans are for sure that Penelope should not know. Definitely. The thing about the slave woman, I, the way I read it too, was explicitly that he knew that she would be the only one to recognize him and that he was yearning for recognition. Like this was his way of finally like having somebody like after all of that, the deception,

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00] like all this to have like the woman who held him as a child. No, this is Odysseus must be just like emotionally satisfying. Whether he just wasn't thinking right about it or whether he was explicitly thinking this would be his plan. Like, I don't know, but I have to, it feels emotionally satisfying

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01] to be recognized. But then if you respond to that emotional satisfaction by threatening to kill the

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00] woman. Nanny, I will kill you. I'll fucking kill you with all these other bitches if you don't shut up.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That seems less, you know, but you know, Odysseus is still trying to get all his shit together emotionally and like, I think strategically. So I think that can work. I just think that it's just so weird that they collaborate to get Eurycleia to wash his feet when that's the one way that it's just like, okay, there's no question anymore. You know, this couldn't even be a God probably

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00] because they wouldn't think to do that. Yeah. I like the deception of Athena. Yeah. Like that. I kind of like that. That's fine. I wanted to really quickly read from that article that you didn't care for, but he has a quote from Seneca and he says that in Seneca, when talking about liberal studies, he makes this backhanded comment about what he perceives as a deficiency in the current curriculum. Now we're talking about somebody literally like living in like, you know, 10 AD or

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00] something. Why inquire whether Penelope was pure, had deceived her contemporaries, whether she suspected before she actually knew that the man whom she was looking at was Ulysses. Teach me rather what purity is and how much value there is in it, whether it resides in the body or in the mind.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01] Seneca, you're such a fucking fun sponge. Unbelievable. This is why Nero made you kill yourself.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02] That would happen.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I also, for the first time really did a scholar, just to make sure I wasn't crazy, did like a scholarly, you know, deep dive a little bit. I mean, quote unquote, because it took like two hours. But yeah, there's a bunch of people who lay out the kind of case that I'm making with a few variations. And there are people who disagree. I did get the sense that it's still not the most popular reading that most people don't think that. And honestly, like I'm the first person to like

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01] bring it up in human situation in terms of like the other lecturers that lecture on this. But it has been there even since Seneca. And yeah, I just think it's the one thing I will give the other side two is even if they couldn't have shown it to the rest of the palace, right? They had to be super careful. Homer could have let us know. And he never does. He never says like she knows. There's a few

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01] things and I wonder about the translations where it's very ambiguous whether the recognition has occurred, but he never says it explicitly. And there's other things where people are disguised where he does

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00] say it explicitly. So, yeah. The thing I found really interesting was in the scholarship before apparently like these conflicting details or like at least on one reading conflicting details has been used as an argument for multiple authors. Yeah. Like in Genesis. Yeah. That's the other weird

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01] thing about your guy is that like he brings in Genesis. Like what does that matter? Am I right about

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00] that? Wait, I don't remember him bringing in Genesis. Yeah. Although like interestingly, you know, like probably the earliest bits of the Hebrew Bible were being written down at around the time that Homer was thought to have been composing it. Right. Because there are conflicting details in Genesis that are talked about a lot, like the two creation stories that come from different traditions

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01] that were just sort of like included. Yeah. Yeah. That's so that's always, this is a side note, just mind boggling to me whenever we do Genesis in the same course that there are these two inconsistent creation stories at the beginning of the Bible. And like, everyone's just like decided

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00] to just be like, whatever. No, you should hear Tamler, the Christian apologists try to explain it away. There has been like more ink spilled to try to like convince people that there's actually no conflict there that it's crazy. But like there's different things happen on different days and like Eve comes from different places. Well, you don't understand Tamler. You need Jesus to guide your understanding.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not saying this proves there's no God. I just want someone to fucking stop gaslighting us about the fact that the first two books of Genesis just aren't compatible with each other.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00] First two chapters or whatever. There's even different gods that obviously got

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01] morphed into one, you know, it's crazy. And yeah, there's Yahweh. And then, and there's also just multiple gods. Like everyone decided to just forget about that. Yeah. It starts off with the plural when we created it. And it's like, wait, no, yeah. I thought naively that the whole thing was that there was only one God. Yeah, I know. And not to be all Richard Dawkins-y because I respect religion. I'm just saying like address this. It's more respectable to address it.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Should we go through? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01] So, you know, I don't know how much you want to talk about there. I feel like they already had

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00] the conversation about the weapon. Yeah. I thought I was going crazy. I was like, did I read ahead?

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01] Like, yeah. This is an oral tradition part of it previously in the Odyssey. It's kind of interesting that Athena is lighting it for them, but Odysseus seems to know that and can see her and Telemachus can't. Is that what you read from this? Yeah. Telemachus is like so crazy.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00] Like there's this glow as if it were lit. Maybe there's a God in the house. Yeah. And Odysseus is

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01] hush. Again, like we got to keep this like quiet is a running theme through all of these books,

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00] these kind of before the battle books. Right. And then I like, you know, for your account, especially that like the first thing that is told to us about Penelope is that she comes down

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01] with her wits about her. Yeah, exactly. Like, why is she even doing this? Like, why is this so important to her? And I get that she has done this in the past with other beggars, but she has agreed to like postpone it till late at night in the room with the suitors. And then Melantho, you got to love her. She sounds hot. She's such a little slut and she's hot. And I like that she's just like, get the fuck out of here. What are you doing here?

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00] You're spying on us women. You will soon get pelted with a torch. Yeah. And then Odysseus is just so humble. He's like, you know, I have no choice. This is what homeless people have to do. I had a happy life with slave girls and Zeus fucked it all up. Zeus catching strays again.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Well, I think, again, I think both of them keep trying to say, oh yeah, the gods ruined everything for me. And there is weird things about both of them. I think, you know, recognition or not are kind of reckoning with their role in the state of affairs right now. And then Penelope, who had listened warily, like, again, why is she listening warily? She just says,

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01] you brazen, shameless dog, I see you. Now in other translations, based on the research I've done, she's like, I know what you've done, like, or I know your schemes. And because Emily Wilson has to put it all in the same number of lines as the Odyssey, she kind of cuts that part. It's not that explicit. I looked at the other translations. She's like, I know what you're up to. I know what you did. I know what you've done. But I think, like, she is telling her, like, I know that you're

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01] the one that betrayed me to the suitors about the loom. And then she's like, she doesn't even tell her to get out. She just might be there the whole time, actually, because that's just the policy. You know, that's just the norm. And there's definitely other slaves that are there. And then she says, bring out a chair, put a cushion on it. She asks him, like, who are your parents? Where is your

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01] hometown? Which is just so interesting, right? Like, if she thinks it, if she suspects it, if she doesn't, either way, this is his hometown. Like, she knows very well who her parents are. And he says not to ask her that. He says, do not ask about my family or native land. The memory will fill my heart with pain. I am a man of sorrow. I should not sit in someone else's house lamenting. It is rude to keep

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01] on grieving. The slaves or even you might criticize and say my tearfulness is caused by wine.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00] But he's so sensitive. If only she knew how much he'd cried throughout. Yeah, like, you clearly don't

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01] need wine to start bawling. Yeah. But what's interesting, I think, is she's like, okay, yeah, but no, tell me, you know. But first, she gives him the whole story. Just again, this is very strange. If you think she doesn't recognize him at all, it's just strange for her to unload like this on this random beggar. But she tells him, you know, the God has ruined me. These people from these other

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01] islands and also in Ithaca are courting me, though I do not want them to, and spoiling my house. I cannot deal, I love this, I cannot deal with suppliants, strangers, and homeless men who want a job. I miss Odysseus, my heart is melting. Like, I think she's saying like, this isn't working for me. You being like a stranger in the home. I miss Odysseus, my heart is melting. But okay, set that aside. The suitors want to push me into marriage, but I spin schemes.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01] And then she tells him her famous scheme, but then her fickle dog-like slave girls caught her at it. And the suitors made her finish it. She also says her parents are pressing her to marry. But then she ends that by saying, and now you must reveal your ancestry. You were not born from rocks or trees as in a fairy tale. So just to conclude this, you know, in my reading, I think she's saying,

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01] okay, I told you how I, you know, got to this place where there are all these suitors eating up all of our, like, wealth that we've acquired or that you acquired. Now you tell me, you know, what's your excuse?

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01] But I don't know. What do you think about this speech that she goes into?

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, it didn't strike me as odd that she would be telling him. Like, that just seems to be the thing that happens at all of the places that Odysseus goes. Like, people just spill their guts to strangers. Open up. Yeah. And since she's the host of the house. So like, I don't know. Again, it's like, I could totally see it both ways.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01] But I do think whatever you think about that, she is getting across to him that this is both kind of her fault, but also not her fault because she didn't want them here. She did try to stall them.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00] It's interesting. Like throughout, there's always like excuse making.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00] And it's like sometimes framed as like, like, I'm not the bad person here. You know, this is like somebody else's fault or whatever. Like, you know, sometimes it's more motivated to like not take the blame. And sometimes it's just the way they say it. Like, it's always some external thing that's like causing. No, nobody ever says like, well, I guess Odysseus sometimes will say like, yeah, I fucked up.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01] You know, sometimes he'll blame not the gods or some external thing, but just his hungry belly or his warrior spirit or something like that. But not in a way that necessarily lets him off the hook. But I agree. Like, again, I love the idea of them both trying to explain to each other, like what happened. I think Odysseus will do that too, but in a slightly more deceitful way. Like,

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01] I kind of think what Penelope is saying is more or less true, even if maybe she's underplaying her ability to not have 116 Asus in her house.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00] You know, if it is true that there are slaves close by listening to this whole thing, then your account makes a lot more sense. Like as I was reading it, I was like, why would they be talking to each other this way when you could just clear it up? It's like a Three's Company episode. Like, just clear up the misunderstanding. Hey, are you Odysseus? Because I'm getting Odysseus

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01] vibes. Like, I'm just saying. Yeah, I mean, I think like it's not normal to just leave the queen alone with some random beggar. So they probably are just going to be at the, if not Melantho, who's clearly treacherous, much as we love her. There's definitely Yuri Nomi and Yuriklai, although I think they both know they can trust her, but still.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00] So now he goes with his like Crete story, you know, his detailed backstory. I was wondering, like, you know, he says who his parents were, who his grandparents were. Is he like identity stealing? Is he like identity theft? Like, is there actually somebody he's claiming to be?

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. I have to think that there's something kind of thematically or a message that he's getting across, but like you don't really see what that might be.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00] It does seem like he is able in his lies to communicate some sort of sentimental, like emotional truth. Yes. And that's why I like the line right after he finishes talking where it says his lies were like the truth. And as she listened, she began to weep. Yeah. Because I think he's telling a story about some, you know, random Cretan guy who's been through as much as he's been through.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. His lies were like, the truth is such a perfectly ambiguous line because if you read it like I do, it's like they were like the truth because they were conveying something to her. Yeah. I love this image. Her face was melting like the snow that Zephyr scatters across the mountain peaks. Then Yurus thaws it. And as it melts, the rivers swell and flow again.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01] So were her lovely cheeks dissolved with tears. She wept for her own husband who is right next to her. I mean, you know, this works beautifully no matter what. But yeah, just the thing is they're right next to each other. And whether they have to not hug or they have to like, you know, she doesn't either way, it's just so heartbreaking that these two like minded people

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_01] have to like not be together. And maybe it's just on Odysseus's side. But but yeah, so close. Yeah. So then she gives him the test, which I again, I love. OK, like, did you really see my husband? Describe his clothes and what he looked like and his men. It was just like a pretty severe test to give a random beggar who's down on his luck 20 years ago. But,

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00] you know, he's like, it's fuzzy. It's really fuzzy. It's 20 years ago. Purple cloak, double folded wool, fastened with a golden bridge with double pins that was elaborately engraved front paws, a dog held down a struggling dappled fauna. It's just hilarious.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01] She said, I noticed his white tunic was soft as a dried up onion peel and shiny as sunlight. It astonished many women. This is also one in other translations where he says something like the women were, they loved it. He's trying to make her jealous. Yeah, exactly. And then he says, yeah, Odysseus had many dear friends since very few could match his worth. And then he says, I remember Yuri Batis, a man a little older than himself who had black skin,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01] round shoulders, woolly hair and was his favorite out of all his crew because his mind matched his is an interesting line too. Like, it's like he likes the people his mind matches.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00] I just want to say it's so woke of Homer to include a black guy and call him smart. He's just pandering. He's pandering.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01] They had their own DEI back then. Yeah. And then it's just like, just the way it's described, I think is so fascinating. These words increased her grief. She knew the signs he had planted as evidence and sobbed. She wept profusely. And I think you could take that as, oh, you really did see Odysseus, you know, cause you passed the test or like, wow, it's really you. And I can't believe

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01] this. Like I kind of knew it, but like now it's pretty certain. Yeah.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. By the way, when she says that Kurt, I will never welcome him home. A curse sailed on that ship when he went off to see E. William. Yeah. The town I will not name. Yeah. Which I guess is just Troy. Like I looked up, you know, it's some, uh, in the original, some play on words.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. What's funny. Like she just mentioned Troy Blake a little earlier. It is very funny that she just said it like a little bit earlier. And from now on it's like, no, I won't even say that word. What were you thinking? I do think that's also going through her mind, you know, like what were you doing? Uh, okay. So then yeah, Odysseus says, I do not blame you. Any woman would mourn for a

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01] husband by whom she had children. Even if he were not the kind of man they say your husband was a godlike hero. I heard he had a big dick. Yeah, exactly. But then now this is where I think he's conveying to her, like why it's taken him so long. Cause this is super interesting, right? He says, I'll be frank with you, which is whenever Odysseus says that, you know, that like there's a big lie,

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01] like a metal lie coming. I heard Odysseus is coming home. He is alive and near here in Thesprosia. Thesprosia, by the way, means recognition. No, that's not true. By hustling, he gained a heap of treasure that he is bringing home. So like right now he's just saying like, I, he's bringing like a shitload of treasure. Don't worry about that. No man,

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01] then just skipping down a bit, no man on earth knows better how to make a profit. So yeah. And then he's saying that Zeus despised him. He himself was clinging to the rudder and washed up. It's so funny how he skips Calypso here. He just says after the cattle of his son, it's just like, uh, oh yeah. And then he washed up in the land of the Fleecians. Oh, those seven years. I don't know. They loved him there also. But like, yeah, just completely gets that aside.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00] Now he's just like, he's just like being like, and he knows how to make money. Like nobody else.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, exactly. It does seem a little antisemitic if he was talking. No man on earth knows better how to make a profit. Yeah. And then he says, he showed me the treasure that Odysseus had gained enough to feed his children and grandchildren for like, it was worth it. I just, it was worth it. You know, like his grandchildren, 10 whole generations. And then

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01] he says, I tell you, he's safe near at hand, uh, this very lunar month. And Penelope says, okay, well, I hope you're right, but I don't see it. And then it seems like she's ending this, right? She says, no one will see you off. There's no master here, but slaves, you see the slaves are there. She says, slaves give him a wash. They're at least in earshot. Right. And make a bed with mattress,

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01] woolen blankets. Right. She says something interesting at the end of this human beings have short lives. If we are cruel, everyone will curse us during our life and mock us when we die. The names of those who act with nobleness are brought by travelers across the world. And many people speak about their goodness. Like just so interesting about like how hospitality, even now it's just, you can't overstate the importance of that and the connection to honor

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00] and reputation and like goodness. And it's nice. Like it's the most honorable when it's like difficult to do. Yeah. You know, she's not in the position to be accepting a beggar into her house right now.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01] She's going through some shit. Yeah. Yeah. So then she, they do the feet thing and whether you think this is a collaboration, I don't know, but, uh, it is interesting. And also note what she says, right? She says, yeah, I can get your client to do it. She is quite weak, but she can wash your feet. Get up now, Eurycleia. Wash your master's age mate. Someone who's right. The same age.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01] By now, Odysseus himself must have old wrinkled feet and hands like these. We mortals grow old in times of trouble. It's just kind of interesting. Yeah. And then Eurycleia says that I'll wash you for her sake and for your yours. You move my heart. Now, listen, many strangers have come here in trouble and distress, but I have never seen any man whose body, voice, and feet are so much like my master's. Like, so she has recognized at least

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01] that, right? Like it's not the greatest disguise in the world and it wouldn't need to be for the

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00] suitors or for anyone else really. Yeah. I love that the old slave woman recognizes him. Like, I think it's super meaningful to him. Like Argos, of course, like I think they are penetrating through Athena's disguise. And like that recognition is such a powerful thing and moving thing. And what Odysseus wants, even though he's scheming and pretending, obviously like going to great lengths to deceive, he's like loving if somebody can recognize him through that.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Although he doesn't show that he loves it, but I agree with you, but he has a very kind of startling reaction. But if you think the slaves are around her and like, we cannot fuck this up, you know, we're so close right now. I think it makes sense, but yeah, it's weird. Like he specifically requested her.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I'm doing some depth psychology to say that he wants to be recognized, you know, like I'm doing psychoanalytic work.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01] I kind of agree with you. Like, you know, in my mind, that's also to kind of confirm what's going on. But I think yours actually makes more sense because given his reaction, it seems like he doesn't want her to know, or at least tell. And maybe this is, he thought Penelope would, they would be able to signal to each other. Yep. This is the guy. Like, you know, you wanted a hundred percent ironclad proof. This is him. And Athena just gets in the way of that.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01] But yeah, I like your idea thematically much better that he's desperate to be just a hundred percent confirmed recognized.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I also think it makes sense that if the reading is Penelope's like, this whole thing has been like, fuck man, I really think this guy might be Odysseus. Like I'm not a hundred percent. Who in this household could confirm? Yeah. Like her bringing Eurycleia and him accepting her really does seem like a moment of scheming. Yes. Where if he really didn't want to be recognized, he would refuse her specifically. Yeah. He would say, like, bring me like the, you know, the young bitches.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01] And he requested like specifically, like, I think it's true that she offered Eurycleia, but he basically like said, it's got to be someone old. Exactly. Like someone and then just describe Eurycleia. So like, I think that is the most plausible way of reading how that comes about. Okay. So here's the thing now that I find fascinating no matter what, but I also think these two things are very good for my theory is her dream. Right.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_01] So again, this is after the thing with the feet. Yeah. So Eurycleia assures him that like, she's not going to give up the secret. And then all of a sudden Penelope is like resuming the conversation. And then she tells him like, what do you think? Like, I have this problem. You know, I could try to hold out or I could marry one of these suitors. And she says, my mind pulls two

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01] directions. Should I stay here beside my son and keep things all the same? My property, my slave girls in my great house to show respect towards my husband's bed and what the people say, or should I marry one of them, whichever is the best of the suitors and can bring most presents. When my son was immature and young, I could not leave my husband's house. He wouldn't let me, but now that he's big and all grown up, he urges me to go because he's concerned that he's eating up

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01] the property. So she just kind of says like, tell me what to do. And then just says, now, how do you interpret the stream of mine? I love that. Now, how do you interpret the stream of mine? I dreamed that 20 geese came from the river to my house and they were eating grain and I was glad to see them. Then a huge eagle with a pointed beak swooped from the mountain, broke their necks and killed them. I wept and wailed inside the dream. The women gathered around me and I cried because the

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01] eagle killed my geese. Then he came back and sitting on the jutting roof beam, spoken human language to restrain my grief. Penelope, great queen, cheer up. This is no dream. It will come true. It is a vision. The geese are suitors. I was once an eagle, but now I am your husband. I have come back to put a cruel end to them. Then I woke up, looked around and saw the geese still eating grain beside the trough

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_00] as they had done before. I love how within the dream there's the interpretation. It's like putting a hat

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01] on a hat. Well, I just think that's so funny that she says, how do you interpret this dream? And the dream comes with its own interpretation. Again, like you're not stupid. There's a point to all this. But then there's also other interesting elements, right? Like the geese were there and she was glad to see the geese. And then the eagle killed the geese and she cried. Right. And then when it's revealed

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_01] that he's her husband, she says, and then I woke up, looked around and the geese were still eating grain beside the trough as they have done before. That to me is saying like, why are the suitors still like eating us out of house and home? You know, if you really are back, are you an eagle? Like,

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00] are you going to like do this? Are you going to keep the promise of the dream? Yeah. It's weird that she woke up and the geese were there as before when in her description of the dream, it was in the house. It's just like a really weird. Oh my God. When it says like they were still there, I'm like, wait, wait, were they there? Like, did she fall asleep beside the trough? Yes, totally. I think that's so interesting. I mean,

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01] there's, it's, it's very cool. You could think of it as Lynchian, you know, like dreams and reality, like interacting, but it's also, it's more the, the point of it. I think like the geese are still here. Hello. Yeah. I thought the eagle was going to kill the geese. What do you think? Is the eagle going to fucking kill the geese or not? And then Odysseus, well known for his intelligence says,

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01] I think that's a Odysseus said how he will fulfill it. It means ruin for the suitors.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00] I like reading this as like a, my dear woman, there's no way to rest another meaning out of the dream as Odysseus being like, wait, are you really asking me the question about what this means when the meaning is in the dream? Odysseus himself said how he will fulfill it.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_01] I just think that's so fascinating, but I also think there's something very poignant about her saying, you know, maybe I did enjoy the attentions of these suitors.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00] Totally. Like these young men slanging dick for me, you know?

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01] Totally. And that's what'll happen if you leave for 20 years, but I think she's being upfront about it.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_00] And then she says like, all right, but like, just know not all dreams come true. There's two kinds. There's the kind that like give you false hope that they're from ivory and full of trickery and turn out to be false. And one come through polished horn and come true.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So this is fascinating. So she says, yeah, there are two gates of dreams. One pair is made of horn and one of ivory. And like you said, the ivory one is full of trickery and is false. The one that comes through polished horn come true. But my strange dream did not come out that way. I think I wish it had as does my son. The day of doom is coming that will take me from the house of my Odysseus.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01] I will arrange a contest with his axes. So she's basically setting up the contest that will be, you know, the inciting event for the massacre. And then she says, whoever's going to string the bow most readily and shoots through all 12 axes will win me and I will follow him. I will be parted from here, this lovely house, my marriage home, so full of wealth and life, which I suppose I will remember

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01] even in my dreams, which is beautiful, right? Like it's so beautiful. Scheming Odysseus said, honored wife of great Odysseus, do not postpone this contest. They will fumble with the bow and will not finish stringing it or shooting the arrow through before Odysseus, the mastermind arrives. I just think this is her just saying, okay, here's how we're going to do it. And him saying, great idea.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, one thing when I did the secondary research, but one of the things was the horn, that's the true one. That's what his bow is made out of horn. Yeah. And yeah, it's a really good plan as we'll see. And I just think, here's what I would ask people. If you don't think that she's recognized him and you don't think that he knows that, then why is she just deciding I'm going to

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_01] get married tomorrow to these suitors I hate and wish were dead? Like, I'm just going to get married with one of them tomorrow. And Odysseus is like, cool, great, do it. I guess you could say that she's finally given up hope, even though she's been given the best and most compelling evidence that he's alive and imminently arriving, but she still decided to marry the next day. Like it just like,

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_01] I don't, I don't totally get what you think. If you think that that's what's happening,

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00] what am I missing? Well, I guess I would think that she's been sort of forced to finally make this decision. It's all come to a head. And maybe even emotionally now, like you could read it as like this conversation is making me realize I got to shit or get off the pot. And the hope that she might have gotten from this conversation and the dream could just be like, okay, like, is this a, was this one of those dreams that's going to come true or that it's just full of like bullshit? I need

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_00] to find out. Yeah. And so let's find out. Like I could live with her still being like, I don't know, but I do know that this test, like knowing my husband, like this is the kind of test that he would pass. So if one of these young men can pass it, it's symbolically like feels like they should have it. But at the same time, you're fucking with me. So like, if you're saying something's going to happen, it's going to happen tomorrow. Yeah. You know? I mean, I, I guess, yeah, I just love,

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01] I'm a romantic and I love the idea of them right now, hatching the idea. I mean, Odysseus and Telemachus and Athena have done the thing with the weapons that she knows about. And so she's creating a pretext for this bow to come out. And I think she knows that Odysseus can string it. And I think she knows that it's very hard to string. So, you know, this was a very intense meeting,

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01] but ultimately the thing that comes out of it is a plan and a kind of mutual, we're on the same page here. We can work through our shit later, but now the time is to spring into action.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And then she says, uh, she's going to go cry. Yeah. And then she says, I've been crying since he went off to Evelium, the town that I will not own, but it's totally Troy that I named before. Except like 10 minutes ago. Yeah. So then when you think like in her room and this is in her room, she cried for her dear husband, that she's just crying. Yeah. She just saw him like, oh my God.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I think, but again, that in particular could be read either way. Yeah. You know,

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00] I'll just say like, I kind of liked the reading that there are, um, clear traditions where she knows and clear traditions where she doesn't know. And like, I, I like the Schrodinger's Penelope here. And I, like, I feel deeply that at minimum, at a minimum, she has more hope now that this might be him than ever before. Like whether or not she knows explicitly, like I'm still on the fence, but I think you have compelling reasons and that you can choose that reading if it's

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_00] like emotionally satisfying. Yeah. But it does feel like Homer didn't have, like,

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_01] he just put in some mystery there for us. Yeah. He certainly didn't settle the question. And to the extent that there is a surface reading, it's clearly that she doesn't. I just think a lot of the other stuff doesn't fit together quite as well. And like in particular, like they're at this

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_00] very end when they come up with a test, it seems like a very quick, like agreement where it's like a test that's devised that Odysseus obviously knows is one that he could pass and that nobody else could. And like all throughout Homer's reminding us, scheming Odysseus said, yeah, do it. Shrewd Penelope said that, you know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, they do get these

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01] epithets all the time, but. I know, but you know, it means something. It means something. When you put it right before. Yeah. And why would she be shrewd about telling a beggar about a dream? Like, you know, like there's nothing to be shrewd about there unless you think there's something that this beggar can do about what she's going to say. Yeah. I feel like she is not letting herself

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_00] fully believe it because it's been 20 years of hoping and nothing's happened. I'm okay with that. And she's just like stubbornly refusing to like conclusively say this is him. Yeah. Especially

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01] since Athena like averted her eyes. Right. Because I think that could have been like the perfect perfect. Like Eurycleia goes like, man, man, like, you know, but Odysseus catches her right before. But like if she had been able to look over there, she would have seen them going like, you know, like. I like this Penelope versus Athena reading. Yeah. Because Penelope versus Calypso, like she already won that one. Totally. I was going to say poor Calypso is like left out.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01] Like probably Hermes is going there and telling. Oh no, he really likes that Penelope. Trust me. Sorry about that. Calypso. Maybe some other guy will like wash up on shore for you.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00] Achilles is dead. All right. Well, I'm glad we devoted an episode to just this one. Yeah.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01] Whatever you think. It's such a cool book. And yeah, this is so much fun to do. I'm so glad we're doing this before it gets ruined for us with Chris. Oh man. Like I want these to stay,

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_00] you know, stand like for like evergreen episodes and not talk too much about current events. But it is funny that my Twitter feed has currently been pretty full of people talking either about Nolan's casting choices or just this like renewed fucking debate about Emily Wilson's use of a complicated man. Did you, I don't know if you've seen this. Like there's just like a bunch more of this discussion about whether Emily Wilson was right to translate it as complicated. And it's just all

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00] weirdly driven by the same people who don't like Lupita. What's her face to be held. Yeah. It's just the same strand of right of center people who hate Emily Wilson and hate Nolan for casting, you know, Elliot page. Achilles. That seems like trolling. Honestly. Well, so what I heard is it's because Achilles is the shadow of himself. Like he's like the dead Achilles. He's willing to like cast like wafy Elliot page, you know, like a shadow of a man.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_01] Is the shadow. Like not, not a real man. You said that. That one when I, I don't know if that's true. I think it's a rumor at this point. I don't think it's been fully confirmed, but that one, it's been like, okay, you want this culture war.

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00] That's it's fine. I support it, but like, don't complain. Like, you know, you know, there are some people talking about like the description of Achilles as like a femme boy

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_01] kind of. Oh yeah. I did see that. That did make my for you timeline. Uh, you know, the guy had to walk it back because Plato just takes it for granted that they were fucking Patroclus and Achilles. And so like, he couldn't just say, Oh, this is the new, like woke Emily Wilson thing. This is something that's been around forever. And also was just kind of assumed to be true by a lot of the Greeks who these people supposedly revere. So.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00] Right. Totally. Totally. It's very complicated for them. It's so funny to see them like, yeah. I'd be like, it's not the same. It's not like a homosexual identity. Yeah. It's like, wait, like, what are we even arguing?

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01] It's ridiculous. It's just like, yeah, it's, it's so ridiculous. And it's like, Achilles is a role model. It's like, you really think that's the most interesting way to like read the Iliad as Achilles is this just uncomplicated role model.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_00] These are people who have not read. They have not read it. They have not read it. Their knowledge of Achilles is like mine before reading any of this stuff. Like for most of my life.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01] He sits out the war for the like first 16 books. It's just, it's unbelievable.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00] And then all of a sudden the movie Troy is supposed to be like a great depiction. Of the, have you seen it? Yeah, I've never seen it. Cause I don't want to see this stuff. Well, let me just say, Troy was not a good movie and now everybody's like comparing this Odyssey movie and like, like Brad Pitt was Achilles. That was the right choice. You know? It's a different text.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01] It's a completely different book. Achilles is alive and like the greatest warrior of all time in the Iliad. He's dead and like bitter about that in Odyssey. Yeah. All right. Well, we will be back. I think we can do 2021, 22. So we should be, I think, uh, 22 is when the massacre happens. We'll see how that turns out. Maybe the suitors will win. You never know. No. Uh, no.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_01] You know, like I didn't know a lot about this book before reading it, but I did know that. Yeah. All right. Join us next time on the Lotus Eaters.

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_00] The Lotus Eaters.